Fr. Steven Allen: ROCOR, Met. Agathangel & SiR

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Re: Fr. Steven Allen: ROCOR, Met. Agathangel & SiR

Post by jgress »

Dcn Joseph, I've looked over that SiR document you posted, and I don't see Bp Photios or Abp Chrysostomos ever calling the SiR heretical. Our language is very cautious and irenic. Perhaps you prefer to read between the lines and think we believe they are graceless heretics. But you haven't found any official voice of ours that comes out and calls them heretics. With Vladimir Moss, as we noted he has been coming around to the idea that they are heretics, but hasn't himself said anything about their ecclesiological status (other than that they are schismatic) or possession of grace. That is the correct attitude from his point of view, since he does not believe he personally has the authority to anathematize or declare loss of grace, although he does have the duty to refrain from communion with heretics, whether before or after condemnation.

"The fourth concession is that they agree not to use in future the expression “ailing members of the Church” to refer to heretics (6.8). If only the Cyprianites had gone a little further and admitted that this expression was wrong, then they would have freed from themselves from the charge of ecclesiological heresy – a heresy that I have called “the heresy of ecclesiastical elitism”.[2]However, they claim that this teaching of theirs has been “misunderstood” (without explaining how they have been supposedly misunderstood), and promise to refrain from proclaiming it in future only “for the sake of peace”. Until they recognize that they must refrain from proclaiming, not only for the sake of peace, but also for the sake of the truth, without which no peace can be deep and lasting, we must conclude that their adherence to this heresy, though weaker than before, remains…"

The 46th Apostolic Canon, with the interpretation from the Rudder:

CANON XLVI
We order any Bishop, or Presbyter, that has accepted any heretics' Baptism, or sacrifice, to be deposed; for "what consonancy hath Christ with
Beliar? or what part hath the believer with an infidel?"

Interpretation

It behooves Orthodox Christians to shun heretics and the ceremonies
and rites of heretics. They, i.e., heretics, ought rather to be criticized and
admonished by Bishops and Presbyters, in the hope of their apprehending
and returning from their error. For this reason the present Canon prescribes
if any Bishop or Presbyter shall accept a heretic's Baptism as correct and
true, or any sacrifice offered by them, it is ordered that he be dropped.
For what agreement hath Christ with the Devil? or what portion hath the
believer with an unbeliever? Those who accept the doings of heretics either
themselves entertain similar views to theirs or at any rate they lack an
eagerness to free them from their misbelief. For how can those who acquiesce
in their religious ceremonies and rites criticize them with the view of
persuading them to give up their cacodoxical and erroneous heresy?

An excellent footnote to this is available in the translation, but I omit it here for the sake of brevity, as it is very long. It consists of a comprehensive survey of Church practice in receiving heretics into the Church, and also of the Fathers' opinions on grace inside and outside the Church. Nevertheless, as you can see, the canon refers not to manner of reception into the Church, but also one's personal attitude towards the mysteries of heretics. This attitude can be manifested in various ways, include how you receive heretics, but also how you speak to them and even whether you believe their mysteries are true and valid. Moreover, this canon is aimed at clergy only, and the penalty is deposition. It does not impose an anathema as you claimed.

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Re: Fr. Steven Allen: ROCOR, Met. Agathangel & SiR

Post by jgress »

Cyprian, I take your points, but I don't see why you are aiming just at me in this debate, since I am not the one trying to defend Cyprianism here. If you want to convince someone Cyprianism is a heresy, convince Dcn Joseph and the Cyprianites on this forum.

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Re: Fr. Steven Allen: ROCOR, Met. Agathangel & SiR

Post by Cyprian »

jgress wrote:

I agree with what you say, Dcn Joseph, for the most part. As Moss points out, if Cyprianism had been a heresy from the outset, then technically ROCOR would have gone into schism and heresy in 1994, not 2007, which would be problematic for any Russian TO group that traced its origins to post-1994 ROCOR, i.e. all except ROAC.

The ROCOR synod did indeed fall away from the truth and began openly proclaiming heresy back in 1994. Many remained in ROCOR for several years subsequent to 1994, and don't want to view themselves as being associated with a synod preaching heresy during that period, so of course they wish to gloss over the issue of Cyprianism, and find some other impetus for justifying their departure from ROCOR. But Cyprianism (old-calendar ecumenism) is precisely the core issue, and needs to be confronted.

Cyprianism indeed was heretical from the outset. Cyprian's cacodox position paper on ecclesiology was published in 1984, not long after the 1983 ROCOR anathema. It's quite apparent that he crafted his position for the express purpose of contradicting the 1983 anathema. Vladimir Moss has suggested this was the intent of Cyprian in one of his writings, and I agree with him.

Allow me to quote a line from another post of yours in the Old Calendar Ecumenism thread:

"As for Moss' accusation of the heresy of ecclesiastical elitism, that only indicates that his view of the Cyprianites is changing. Whereas before he viewed them as mere "leftist deviationists", now he thinks they are veering into heresy."

Oh really? If that is in fact what Vladimir believes, and you have presented his stance accurately, that raises an interesting question. How is it that the Cyprianites are merely "veering into heresy"? The Cyprianites put forth a heretical ecclesiology 26 years ago! And yet they are merely "veering into heresy"? Has the Cyprianite ecclesiology changed over the past 26 years? I think you had the first part right. Vladimir Moss is the one who has taken a more resolute stand against Cyprianism recently. I don't think the Cyprianites have changed their basic presentation of their ecclesiology at all. They were espousing heresy 26 years ago. I think the stance of Vladimir Moss is what has changed (for the better). Anyway, he can speak for himself. He is a member of this forum.

It's very simple. If you accept the ROCA Anathema of 1983 as sound orthodox dogma, you cannot accept the Cyprianite ecclesiology as anything but cacodoxy. They are simply incompatible with each other. One must choose one or the other, just as prophet Elijah charged the Israelites to cease halting between two opinions, and choose to follow baal or the Lord God, but not both.

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Re: Fr. Steven Allen: ROCOR, Met. Agathangel & SiR

Post by Cyprian »

jgress wrote:

Cyprian, I take your points, but I don't see why you are aiming just at me in this debate, since I am not the one trying to defend Cyprianism here. If you want to convince someone Cyprianism is a heresy, convince Dcn Joseph and the Cyprianites on this forum.

I'm sorry that you feel like I am specifically taking "aim" at you. That is not my intent. My intent is simply to cut through all the noise and get to the core issue, without mincing words. If I have shied away from responding to Dcn. Joseph's posts on this issue, there are specific reasons for this, not the least of which is the fact that he is a clergyman in the Milan synod, and in case some were not aware, when Cyprian was deposed and on his own he turned to the synod of Milan for episcopal consecrations. Seeing how Dcn. Joseph's synod is directly responsible for the grievous calamity of aiding and abetting Cyprian's foray into schism, I don't feel that Dcn. Joseph can approach the issue from an unbiased position. Furthermore, Dcn. Joseph seems to want to delve into minutia regarding history, of which I have little interest, rather than a discussion about the core issue of Cyprianism--which is of course, the fact that their teaching was formulated in direct opposition to the orthodox dogmas expressed in the ROCA 1983 Anathema Against Ecumenism. So I don't think much fruit would come from engaging him on this issue. I will leave him to his private opinions.

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Re: Fr. Steven Allen: ROCOR, Met. Agathangel & SiR

Post by jgress »

I understand now. Forgive me for my hasty reaction.

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Re: Fr. Steven Allen: ROCOR, Met. Agathangel & SiR

Post by Suaidan »

Moderator Note: I, strangely, haven't received notifications on at least 5 posts in this case.

Cyprian wrote:
jgress wrote:

Cyprian, I take your points, but I don't see why you are aiming just at me in this debate, since I am not the one trying to defend Cyprianism here. If you want to convince someone Cyprianism is a heresy, convince Dcn Joseph and the Cyprianites on this forum.

I'm sorry that you feel like I am specifically taking "aim" at you. That is not my intent. My intent is simply to cut through all the noise and get to the core issue, without mincing words. If I have shied away from responding to Dcn. Joseph's posts on this issue, there are specific reasons for this, not the least of which is the fact that he is a clergyman in the Milan synod, and in case some were not aware, when Cyprian was deposed and on his own he turned to the synod of Milan for episcopal consecrations. Seeing how Dcn. Joseph's synod is directly responsible for the grievous calamity of aiding and abetting Cyprian's foray into schism, I don't feel that Dcn. Joseph can approach the issue from an unbiased position. Furthermore, Dcn. Joseph seems to want to delve into minutia regarding history, of which I have little interest, rather than a discussion about the core issue of Cyprianism--which is of course, the fact that their teaching was formulated in direct opposition to the orthodox dogmas expressed in the ROCA 1983 Anathema Against Ecumenism. So I don't think much fruit would come from engaging him on this issue. I will leave him to his private opinions.

I was wondering when someone would come out with something on my Synod!

This is not an honest presentation. First, the resistance position was articulated in 1984. First off, Metropolitan Evloghios assisted in the consecration of Archbishop Chrysostomos in 1986. To my knowledge, that's it. And as far as I knew, the SiR already had two Bishops. They did not need us to begin with. Nor am I totally familiar with the circumstances that led to the decisive break in relations between the Western Synod (then headed in Lisbon, not Milan) and the SiR. But the claim that we "aided and abetted" Metropolitan Cyprian's "foray into schism" (from whom???) is unfounded. We've always helped those who have asked. We still do.

That makes me biased? A single assistance of our Bishops in 1986? Interesting.

Fr Joseph Suaidan (Suaiden, same guy)

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Re: Fr. Steven Allen: ROCOR, Met. Agathangel & SiR

Post by Suaidan »

jgress wrote:

Dcn Joseph, I've looked over that SiR document you posted, and I don't see Bp Photios or Abp Chrysostomos ever calling the SiR heretical. Our language is very cautious and irenic. Perhaps you prefer to read between the lines and think we believe they are graceless heretics. But you haven't found any official voice of ours that comes out and calls them heretics. With Vladimir Moss, as we noted he has been coming around to the idea that they are heretics, but hasn't himself said anything about their ecclesiological status (other than that they are schismatic) or possession of grace. That is the correct attitude from his point of view, since he does not believe he personally has the authority to anathematize or declare loss of grace, although he does have the duty to refrain from communion with heretics, whether before or after condemnation.

Let me get this straight. What you are saying is, in effect, that neither your first hierarch nor Bp Photios has actually officially referred to the SiR as heretical, nor does today? Great. I would have been fooled by the past ten years of statements, such as the one about the Bishops deposed for matters of faith.

So all we need to see are the grounds in the document of deposition and that matter will be cleared up! Why, even looking at Fr Steven's document, there is an implication of heresy, but never a direct claim.

Impressive! Well, I guess I have little left to say then except I deny the TOC-Chrysostomos the right to depose those outside their jurisdiction, and that's that. Little confused, since I always thought that the Synod claimed the SiR were heretics, but I feel better now!

Fr Joseph Suaidan (Suaiden, same guy)

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