ROCOR and Moscow Reunification [sic]

[Pravoslavnik]

I appreciate your civil, informed reply.

You mention "One of the conditions for re-unification of the ROCOR with the Soviet Orthodox " -- implying that there exists other conditions, as well.

A few years ago I read a list of perhaps 6-7 criteria for reunification.

I recall one being the recognition of the holy martyrs of Russia during and in the aftermath of the Bolshevik Revolution. This seems to have happened. I would think that other items on the list have also been accomplished historical facts.

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 [color=#FF0000]This has, indeed, been the cause celebre of the premature re-unification, although someone mentioned recently that the Moscow Patriarchate has not actually [i]glorified [/i]the Tsar-Martyr Nicholas II.  I do not know the latest on the MP position here.  The relics of the Royal Martyrs were enshrined at the St. Peter and Paul fortress several years ago in a ceremony attended by Boris Yeltsin-- and I even had the privilege of venerating them there-- but Patriarch Alexei II did not, apparently, attend that ceremony, or glorify the Royal Martyrs.

[/color]

Certainly it cannot be asserted in these times that the current Russian government is in any way complicit in the same way or to the same degree in the "Sergianizing" of the Russian Church. For instance, Christ the Savior Cathedral was rebuilt. Many churches have been re-opened and people are free to be baptised again in public. The Russian Church and government appear to be united in fighting non-Orthodox religious cults, preventing groups from converting Russian souls to other non-Orthodox belief systems. Russian leaders have gone to church and have worshiped publically.

Well, no doubt the Sergianist structure of the current MP has served Vladimir Putin's neo-fascist state admirably. In fact, Mr. Putin even declared publicly on ITASS two years ago that "religion is one of Russia's most formidable weapons" of self-defense from our dreaded Western democracies. The MP has also succeeded admirably not only in persecuting heterodox sects within Russia, but in confiscating Orthodox parishes and monasteries belonging to jurisdictions (including the former ROCOR) who were not in previously in communion with the KGB-appointed hierarchs of the MP. Of course, no one in the OCA, Antiochian, or Greek Churches in America, to my knowledge, commented on the impropriety of the most recent MP persecution of Orthodox Christians in Suzdal on Holy Friday! Do you, yourself, find it troubling? Regardless of ones ecclessiological views, does this not constitute impiety and theft, unbecoming of true Christians?

The patriarchal Church is no longer marginalized and its leaders are not prevented from exercising their pristhood in public not are they being carted off to Gulags en masse.

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 [color=#FF0000]Although one brave MP priest from Chernigov was recently persecuted for condemning the position of the MP hierarchs on ecumenism.[/color]

I would think the plan to fire the careerist Russian/Soviet clergy would be somewhat similar to the blunder made by the US in disolving the Iraqi army regulars and starting from scratch. Political considerations... The chaos in the aftermath of such a purge would or could lead to a fresh revolution. Why not let the old geezers die out and let nature take its course. The Lord taught us to "allow the wheat and the tares to grow together". The angels are the ones to cast down and lift up according to God's will.

Possibly. But, can a bad tree bring forth good fruit? Would it not have been more appropriate for the former ROCOR-Laurus hierarchs to have awaited the free canonical election of a Patriarch who was truly independent of the Soviet state and the KGB? Was this not always the position of the ROCOR? For example, when did the ROCOR ever recognize the election of Alexei II (Ridiger) as canonical and legitimate?

Or so it seems to me....

elias

---

you wrote:

"One of the conditions for re-unification of the ROCOR with the Soviet Orthodox "church" administration in Russia included the re-establishment of free, proper canonical authority within the MP-- independent of the atheistic Soviet state hierarchy of the KGB. This was the explicit position of the ROCOR Synod for decades. Yet, the current hierarchs of the MP are all appointees and agents of the former Soviet state, including the recently elected Moscow Patriarch Kyril (Gundayev) and the recently reposed Patriarch Alexey II (Ridiger), a decorated KGB agent with the code name "Drozhdov." Hence, the conditions for proper unification of the ROCOR and the Moscow Patriarchate had not been achieved at the time of the takeover of the ROCOR (MP) by the MP in 2007. It was rather a fait accompli of the KGB, infiltrating and taking over the ROCOR Synod from within, particularly through the efforts of ROCOR Archbishop Mark (Arndt) of Berlin and Metropolitan Laurus (Skurla.)"

[mtcarmel]

Church of Russia opening Seminary in Paris http://orthodoxengland.org.uk/pdf/paris_seminary.pdf

On 1 September 2009 a Russian Orthodox seminary is at last to open on the outskirts of Paris. Approved by the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church on 15 April 2008, as announced on this website in April last year (see: http://orthodoxengland.org.uk/semparis.htm ), the seminary opens at Epinay-sous-Senart just outside Paris. It is being established in the buildings of a former Roman Catholic monastery, taken over by the Diocese of the Russian Orthodox Church based in France. Our vision for such a seminary goes back thirty years to 1979, when we first became conscious of what had sorely been lacking in Western Europe for so long (see our recent interview at:http://rocorstudies.org/?part=articles&aid=10869 ).

However, it was only in 1989 that we publicly called for the establishment of a Metropolia in Western European (see: http://orthodoxengland.org.uk/oewesteu.htm ), which would require a seminary. Our specific call for a seminary for Western Europe was renewed in our 2006 call for a 'Metropolitan Orthodox Seminary' in Europe (see: http://orthodoxengland.org.uk/2wardom.htm).

The seminary building, constructed in the 17th century and surrounded by a large park is situated at No 4, rue Sainte-Genevieve in the town centre of Epinay. It is ten minutes walk from the RER line D railway station which goes to the centre of Paris in thirty minutes. The Orthodox seminary chapel inside is dedicated to St Martin and St Genevieve of Paris and services are open to all. Guests and pilgrims are welcome. Details can be obtained from rectorat@seminaria.fr.

It is notable that the seminary has been set up near Paris, the historic centre of Russian Orthodox emigration and culture in Western Europe. It is even more notable that this announcement comes on the day after the 43rd anniversary of the repose of St John of Shanghai and Western Europe. This is the day before his official feast-day, which by the canonisation decree of 1994 of the Synod of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia is always commemorated on the Saturday following the anniversary of his repose. http://orthodoxengland.org.uk/pdf/paris_seminary.pdf

[Pravoslavnik]

Mt. Carmel,

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     With all due respect, what does this new MP seminary have to do with the current discussion about Sergianism and the takeover of the ROCOR-Laurus by the MP?  Incidentally, does the MP even celebrate the feast of our glorious Wonderworker St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco?  He is not listed on their calendars.   Has the MP/KGB repented of their past attempts to murder St. John yet, to your knowledge?

[mtcarmel]

You make an excellent point.

This announcement by an English ROCOR priest concerning a new MP seminary in Paris probably has little to do with the "takeover" of ROCOR by the MP. It does fit comfortably though under the title of our current thread ("ROCOR and Moscow Reunification"). Fr. Mark Smith recently mentioned the importance of a thread which accurately reflects the content of a discussion under the title of that particular thread. Perhaps there's a titular change merited which is more descriptive of the subject matter you have mentioned?

Having said that, I'm hard-pressed to see radical changes within ROCOR as a "take-over by the MP" when long-standing members of ROCOR and faithful sons of Russia have been involved in the actual reconciliation process with the MP. A portion of the story of the Prodigal Son comes to mind from the Scripture. "(the elder brother) was angry and would not go in."

I had not been aware of a Soviet plan to murder St. John. In any case, if this were so we would hope that St. John would have rejoiced to see such a thing had God allowed it. What seems clear to me is that which underlies the continuous conflict between what remains of hardline ROCOR and the MP. The apparent fear of dying has been a constant companion, an unsettling undercurrent with ROCOR from the first days. The earliest ROCOR bishops seemed to have had an inclination in that direction. You now hint that the possibility of St. John dying as a martyr would have been a terrible thing. From the lives of the saints we see that they rejoiced in the face of martyrdom at the hands of unbelievers. As we now know, by God's design millions of Russians went to their deaths by the hands of the Soviets. ROCOR claims to have preserved the true Russian Church. Think of it in another way. Those living the Russian Orthodox faith in 1917 and after were allowed to die while their faith was still strong and zealous. Death waits for us all.

Metropolitan Anastasy wrote in his Last Will and Testament:

"As regards the Moscow Patriarchate and its hierarchs, then, so long as they continue in close, active and benevolent cooperation with the Soviet Government, which openly professes its complete godlessness and strives to implant atheism in the entire Russian nation, then the Church Abroad, maintaining Her purity, must not have any canonical, liturgical or even simply external communion with them whatsoever..."

On the heels of the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991 the current Russian government has shown itself repentant in a number of ways in regards to their former aggressive pursuit of state-sponsored atheistic policies. Churches restored and rebuilt, diocese re-opened, people being baptized by the thousands, in August 2000 the MP officially condemned the Branch Theory of Ecumenism, they renounced in principle the policies of Metropolitan Sergius, Russian politicians are openly seen in attendance at Orthodox services, etc.

Also in 1991, St Seraphim's relics were rediscovered after being hidden in a Soviet anti-religious museum for seventy years. This caused a sensation in post-Soviet Russia, and indeed throughout the Orthodox world. A religious procession escorted the relics, on foot, all the way from Moscow to Diveyevo Convent, where they remain to this day. It may be true that St. John is not officially recognized by the MP but some weight might certainly be given to the event of St. Seraphim's relics returned to Sarov through the heart of Russia, greeted openly by 10,000s of devout Russians following the collapse of the Soviet Union.

As much as I've admired the traditionalism, the zeal, the writings of ROCOR personalities over the years, at times I'm brought up short with reservations about ROCOR tendencies to lapse into a kind of mitigated semi-donatism. To be a little more specific, the unsettling tendencies among zealous ROCORians to dismiss episcopal validity in settled jurisdictions beyond the borders of Holy Russia because of perceived or real concessions made by bishops under subtle influence from hostile political powers.

I would be interested in a thread that addresses the jurisdictional issues implied in the continuous existence of ROCOR as it eventually transcended the bounds of its first purpose as a life-preserver, becoming a long-term ecclesiastical institution. Was this eventual extra-patriarchical identity anticipated by Patriarch Tikhon when he issued the decree allowing for a parachurch to exist temporarily? The first ROCOR bishops all came from actual locales, living diocese rooted in a real geographical setting. Were these bishops released from those diocese and later install into other diocese by those legitimately representing Mother Church in Russia? Though it has become clear that some parts of ROCOR have again begun to reinhabit some of those diocese in Russia proper where they are actively re-establishing themselves.

elias

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Pravoslavnik wrote Mon 13 July 2009 10:50 pm

With all due respect, what does this new MP seminary have to do with the current discussion about Sergianism and the takeover of the ROCOR-Laurus by the MP? Incidentally, does the MP even celebrate the feast of our glorious Wonderworker St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco? He is not listed on their calendars. Has the MP/KGB repented of their past attempts to murder St. John yet, to your knowledge?

[mikejalex]

http://news.aol.com/article/russian-rig ... -in/572635
1
Russian Rights Activist Found Slain
MOSCOW (July 15) - A well-known
Russian rights activist was found slain
execution-style on Wednesday, hours
after being kidnapped in Chechnya — the
latest in a series of brazen murders
targeting critics of the Kremlin’s violent
policies in the war-torn North Caucasus.
The daylight slaying of Natalya
Estemirova follows the killings in recent
years of reporters, lawyers and activists,
and appeared to indicate that Russia
remains a place where political murders
are committed with impunity.
Russian President Dmitry Medvedev
reacted quickly to the murder — in
contrast to other recent killings —
expressing his condolences, and ordering
the country’s top investigative official “to
take all necessary measures.” His press
spokeswoman Natalya Timakova said
Estemirova’s murder appeared to be
related to her work.
The slaying came the same day as the
release of a report she helped research
that concluded there was enough
evidence to demand that Russian
officials, including Prime Minister Vladimir
Putin, be called to account for crimes
committed on their watch.
“She documented the most horrendous
violations, mass executions,” said
Tatyana Lokshina, a Moscow researcher
with the U.S.-based Human Rights
Watch.
“She has done things no one else dared
to do,” she said.
Estemirova, a 50-year-old single mother,
was reported kidnapped Wednesday
morning by the prominent rights
organization she worked for, Memorial.
Chairman Oleg Orlov said that four men
forced her into a car in the Chechen
capital, Grozny, where she lived. He said
witnesses heard her yell that she was
being abducted.
About nine hours later, her body was
found on a roadside in Ingushetia, which
borders Chechnya to the west. There
were two close-range bullet wounds in
her head, according to Ingush Interior
Ministry spokeswoman Madina
Khadziyeva.
Estemirova had collected evidence of
rights abuses in Chechnya since the start
of the second war there in 1999. She was
a key researcher for a recent Human
Rights Watch report that accused
Chechen authorities of burning more than
two dozen houses in the past year to
punish relatives of alleged rebels.
Orlov accused Chechnya’s Kremlinbacked
president, Ramzan Kadyrov, of
being behind the murder.
http://news.aol.com/article/russian-rig ... -in/572635
2
“Ramzan already threatened Natalya,
insulted her, considered her his personal
enemy,” he said. “Ramzan Kadyrov has
made it impossible for rights activists to
work in Chechnya.”
Estemirova also worked with the
investigative journalist Anna
Politkovskaya, another critic of Kremlin
policies in the North Caucasus who was
gunned down in her Moscow apartment
building in 2006. And she aided Stanislav
Markelov, a lawyer involved in Chechen
rights abuse cases who was shot and
killed on a Moscow street in January,
along with an opposition newspaper
reporter.
Wednesday’s killing came a few hours
after Russian rights groups presented a
report saying that Putin and other top
officials should be considered suspects in
crimes against humanity that could be
tried before an international tribunal.
The 600-page document appeared to be
the first comprehensive attempt to collect
and analyze accounts of atrocities by all
sides in the two wars between separatists
and government forces.
There was no evidence that her killing
was connected to release of the report.
But Markelov was killed as he left a
similar news conference at the same
office in Moscow, where he had spoken
about his efforts to send a Russian
colonel who had strangled a Chechen girl
back to jail.
Andrei Mironov, a rights activist and
former gulag prisoner, asserted that
Estemirova’s killing, and others in recent
months, were clearly sanctioned by
government officials.
“First off, they kill reporters, to cut off the
front line of information. Then they kill
activists. ... They are by definition
enemies and they must be eliminated,” he
said. “This is the Russian state. This is a
Russian political system that generates
terror, systematic terror.”
Both wars in Chechnya were marked by
reports of indiscriminate military attacks
on civilians — including air and rocket
barrages that leveled much of the
Chechen capital — summary executions
of suspected rebel sympathizers and
abductions of civilians by both sides.
At least 484 people were executed
without a trial during the wars and another
465 killed in massacres or at checkpoints,
said Wednesday’s report by Memorial
and other rights groups.
It comes at a time when international
criticism of Russia over Chechnya has
receded. Fighting there has dwindled
from major offensives to small, sporadic
skirmishes.
The authors of the report acknowledged
that in calling for an international
investigation they face an uphill battle.
Rights lawyer Karinna Moskalenko told
reporters that critics have asked her:
“Why do you want to lay bare these
wounds?”
http://news.aol.com/article/russian-rig ... -in/572635
3
“We don’t know when and under what
circumstances, political or otherwise, an
independent investigation of these crimes
may be created,” said Stanislav
Dmitriyevsky, chairman of the Russian-
Chechen Friendship Society.
The report claims to find sufficient
grounds to hold Russian officials to
account for crimes committed under their
leadership.
“Numerous detailed testimonies of these
atrocities have allowed us to name some
of those who should be the first to be
taken to court. ... One of them, Vladimir
Putin, is the head of the government de
jure and the head of state de facto,” the
report said.
Putin was prime minister when the
second Chechen war was launched in

1. Russia’s brutal strategy during his
   presidency was seen as one of the main
   factors behind his extraordinary
   popularity.
   Many of the allegations of abuse in
   Chechnya have been directed against
   Kadyrov and his security forces.
   Kadyrov has overseen massive efforts to
   rebuild the region and persuaded
   hundreds of former militants to join his
   feared security units. But as he has
   consolidated his power, many critics and
   political rivals have been killed — two of
   them in broad daylight on the streets of
   Moscow.
   His office declined to comment on the
   Estemirova killing.
   Although Chechnya has been
   comparatively quiet in recent months,
   violence in neighboring North Caucasus
   regions has spiraled. The president of
   Ingushetia was severely wounded in a
   suicide bombing last month and the top
   police official in Dagestan was killed by a
   sniper.
   Associated Press Writer Jim Heintz in
   Moscow contributed to this report.

THE FOOL SAID TO HIMSELF "DONT BOTHER ME WITH THE FACTS, FOR MY MIND IS MADE UP" Remember, Putin is the unification engineer by Drozdov's admission during the unification ceremony before the latter's demise

[Catherine5]

Thank you, Mike J. Alex, for this update.

Mt Carmel, I heard those relics aren't even real.
Many oppositionist priests believe it's not St Seraphim, and hence a trick of the devil to get people to pay homage to an ordinary mortal rather than a Saint.

I suspect they are very correct
I betcha the number of true miracles since those bones were enshrined at Diveyevo number in the ...minus category !

There are even stories of MP people going to Diveyevo pay their respects to these supposed relics. But instead, they were struck by God with some temporary paralysis or something because it's the devil at work through these unsaintly bones. Then when such people repented their mistake of trusting the MP, they were healed of their problem.

What do you advise, out of curiosity - should I go if I were going to be around there?
Or avoid such a pilgrimage?

Hey, that's a marvelous Chapel you have there. A sight for sore eyes, so to speak.

[Pravoslavnik]

You make an excellent point.

This announcement by an English ROCOR priest concerning a new MP seminary in Paris probably has little to do with the "takeover" of ROCOR by the MP. It does fit comfortably though under the title of our current thread ("ROCOR and Moscow Reunification"). Fr. Mark Smith recently mentioned the importance of a thread which accurately reflects the content of a discussion under the title of that particular thread. Perhaps there's a titular change merited which is more descriptive of the subject matter you have mentioned?

Having said that, I'm hard-pressed to see radical changes within ROCOR as a "take-over by the MP" when long-standing members of ROCOR and faithful sons of Russia have been involved in the actual reconciliation process with the MP. A portion of the story of the Prodigal Son comes to mind from the Scripture. "(the elder brother) was angry and would not go in."

Elias, here you are simply mistaken. No need to put "takeover" in quotes. Read Preobrazhensky on the FSB blueprints for the takeover of the ROCOR. Have you seen the photos of the forced abduction of ROCOR Metropolitan Vitaly after his ouster by Met. Laurus Skurla and the FSB?

I had not been aware of a Soviet plan to murder St. John.

Read the biographies of St. John.

In any case, if this were so we would hope that St. John would have rejoiced to see such a thing had God allowed it. What seems clear to me is that which underlies the continuous conflict between what remains of hardline ROCOR and the MP. The apparent fear of dying has been a constant companion, an unsettling undercurrent with ROCOR from the first days. The earliest ROCOR bishops seemed to have had an inclination in that direction. You now hint that the possibility of St. John dying as a martyr would have been a terrible thing.

No, only that his persecutors were the false church authorities that you are in communion with now.

From the lives of the saints we see that they rejoiced in the face of martyrdom at the hands of unbelievers. As we now know, by God's design millions of Russians went to their deaths by the hands of the Soviets. ROCOR claims to have preserved the true Russian Church. Think of it in another way. Those living the Russian Orthodox faith in 1917 and after were allowed to die while their faith was still strong and zealous. Death waits for us all.

Metropolitan Anastasy wrote in his Last Will and Testament:

"As regards the Moscow Patriarchate and its hierarchs, then, so long as they continue in close, active and benevolent cooperation with the Soviet Government, which openly professes its complete godlessness and strives to implant atheism in the entire Russian nation, then the Church Abroad, maintaining Her purity, must not have any canonical, liturgical or even simply external communion with them whatsoever..."

When has this cooperation ever ceased? Putin is pure KGB, as are Patriarchs Alexei II and Kyril

On the heels of the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991 the current Russian government has shown itself repentant in a number of ways in regards to their former aggressive pursuit of state-sponsored atheistic policies. Churches restored and rebuilt, diocese re-opened, people being baptized by the thousands, in August 2000 the MP officially condemned the Branch Theory of Ecumenism, they renounced in principle the policies of Metropolitan Sergius, Russian politicians are openly seen in attendance at Orthodox services, etc.

They have continued to murder right-confessing Orthodox Christians, and to confiscate their churches and properties-- in Russia and abroad. They are still engaged in ecumenical activities, and punished a priest recently for criticizing such longstanding ecumenism. Wolves in sheeps' clothing.

Also in 1991, St Seraphim's relics were rediscovered after being hidden in a Soviet anti-religious museum for seventy years. This caused a sensation in post-Soviet Russia, and indeed throughout the Orthodox world. A religious procession escorted the relics, on foot, all the way from Moscow to Diveyevo Convent, where they remain to this day. It may be true that St. John is not officially recognized by the MP but some weight might certainly be given to the event of St. Seraphim's relics returned to Sarov through the heart of Russia, greeted openly by 10,000s of devout Russians following the collapse of the Soviet Union.

As much as I've admired the traditionalism, the zeal, the writings of ROCOR personalities over the years, at times I'm brought up short with reservations about ROCOR tendencies to lapse into a kind of mitigated semi-donatism.

The Church Fathers in the time of the Donatists fully repented of their former apostasy. I see no evidence of sincere repentance in the MP to date. Nor have the uncanonically appointed hierarchs of the Soviet MP ever resigned .

To be a little more specific, the unsettling tendencies among zealous ROCORians to dismiss episcopal validity in settled jurisdictions beyond the borders of Holy Russia because of perceived or real concessions made by bishops under subtle influence from hostile political powers.

Again the validity of some of these episcopal appointments-- even outside of Russia-- is a function of the legitimacy of the MP, as I have stated from the beginning. Your assertion begs the original question rather than addressing it.

I would be interested in a thread that addresses the jurisdictional issues implied in the continuous existence of ROCOR as it eventually transcended the bounds of its first purpose as a life-preserver, becoming a long-term ecclesiastical institution.

Yes, in lieu of a legitimate, canonical Russian Orthodox Church administration in Russia, my friend.

Was this eventual extra-patriarchical identity anticipated by Patriarch Tikhon when he issued the decree allowing for a parachurch to exist temporarily? The first ROCOR bishops all came from actual locales, living diocese rooted in a real geographical setting. Were these bishops released from those diocese and later install into other diocese by those legitimately representing Mother Church in Russia?

"Legitimate" is the key word here, Elias. Think about it. Is a Patriarch appointed by and for the KGB legitimate?

Though it has become clear that some parts of ROCOR have again begun to reinhabit some of those diocese in Russia proper where they are actively re-establishing themselves.

elias

---

Pravoslavnik wrote Mon 13 July 2009 10:50 pm

With all due respect, what does this new MP seminary have to do with the current discussion about Sergianism and the takeover of the ROCOR-Laurus by the MP? Incidentally, does the MP even celebrate the feast of our glorious Wonderworker St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco? He is not listed on their calendars. Has the MP/KGB repented of their past attempts to murder St. John yet, to your knowledge?