In Defense of evolution, Papism and the EP by Papoutsis1

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Papoutsis1
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INTRODUCTION TO CANON LAW

Post by Papoutsis1 »

Before we begin we must "define our terms." Please read the forgoing article as a prelude to our discussion of Orthodoxy's Canon Law.

http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/artic ... le7071.asp.

Afterwards we shall engage in a sytematic and logical progression through the Canon's, their interpretations by the Fathers, their modern significance and interpretation and their meaning and application to Orthodox Christians and their relation towards other Christians and the world at large.

Thank you.

God Bless

Peter

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Re: What!?

Post by Jean-Serge »

Papoutsis1 wrote:

Suffice it to say the anathema against the Catholics was lifed by Ecumenical Patriarch Athanagoras, and that's why we can talk and pray with them. However, I'm sure you have an answe for that also.
Peter

Well I know very well the canons and their commentaries about common prayers with heretics... The only references are the Fathers and the well known commentators... If you can prove me with quotations of the Fathers or of well known commentators of the canons like Zonaras, Balsamon or Saint Nicodemus that prayers with heretics are allowed, I will join the EP tomorrow. :lol: :lol:

But the lifting of the anathema was illegal and illogical for a simple reason. The catholics keep on believing in their false doctrines : papal infallibility, filioque, inmaculate conception and so on... An anathema can only be lifted when the other group abandon its mistakes... Moreover, the anatheme was only lifted by Constantinople... The lifting of this anathema expresses the politician nature of the game that is being played.

Priidite, poklonimsja i pripadem ko Hristu.

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May I add something?

Post by Kosmas »

I am compiling a list of deviations from the Apostolic Faith by Popes and have so far relied on the Apostolic Canons, the Seven Ecumenical Synods, and the Council of Laodicea. Going through the canons one finds there are multiple depositions, excommunications, and anathemas for almost every innovation since the 8th Century

Besides this I have something else of a more spiritual nature that will give a definitive reason why today’s ecumenism is against God's Will. In the past two years I have visited two Orthodox parishes that reported miracles. I believe the miracles were not faked but from God. Both these churches were of the GOARCH and both had something peculiar about them. They both had flocks that were spiritually “lukewarm” and they both had huge portraits of Patriarch Athenagoras in the narthex.
It is my opinion (and others) that these miracles were to prompt the flock to align themselves with Orthodox teachings and to take down the portraits of Patriarch Athenagoras.

http://www.stdemetriostucson.org/miracles.asp
http://www.visionsofjesuschrist.com/weeping418.htm

P.S. Anyone know of a site where all the errors of Rome exist?

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Mutual

Post by Papoutsis1 »

The Lifting of the anathemas were mutual. In repsonse to Kosmas' assertion that mircles occurred at churches so the we abandon the Ecumenical Patriarch all I can say that is just wrong. I cannot stress how wrong.

I have met him in person, seen the struggle he goes through, and if he truly was a heretic his struggle would end by simply converting to eartern rite catholisim, fall under Romes Jurisdiction and be done with it. He is not doing this. He will never do this.

Yet he suffers as a true living martyr and we still hate him for talking and praying with Catholics. How sad. There are less than 2000 Greeks in Constandinople. They are all leaving. Turkey will not allow foreign born Greek Orthodox to become Patriarch so the pool is diminishing quick for Ecumenical Patriacrch, and one day, if things don't change, there will be no Ecumenical Patriarch and over 3,000 years of Greek Culture and over 2,000 years of Orthodoxy will be lost. After this who will you hate?

You do not support him. You do not pray for him. Bishops and Archdioces have followed and interpred the canons correctly, but you, following your own interpretation of the Fathers and your own fanatisim, dismiss them as political, freemasons, ecumenist, etc., and yet the Muslims and Turks don't care about this.

We lost almost all of the Arab and Persian lands because we were not willing to talk to the Monophysites, and this allowed the Muslims to come in and take over. Was This right, or was it just plain stubborness and stupidity.

You quote the letter of the law, but what of its spirit? That is why I call you Pharisees. Christ broke the Sabbath, but he followed the Spirit not the letter and allowed his Disiples to pick wheat and eat on the Sabbath.

I am truly sorry for you if you live by the law, and not the Grace and Mercy of Christ.

I bid you piece.

God Bless
Peter

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Another Canonical Response

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I know you won't like it, but here we go again:


by Peter Bouteneff

The editor has asked me to reflect further on points made in my essay on Orthodox ecumenism in the July 1997 issue of In Communion (also reprinted in Sourozh), in particular on the basis of responses from readers, both published and unpublished. The article elicited a sizeable number of letters. I hope that the remarks below will prove useful in furthering the discussion.

My main objective in writing on these issues so far has been to assist in the reflection that is taking place concerning Orthodox participation in the ecumenical movement. It is clear to me that the first step within such a reflection is to draw a sharp line between insubstantial criticisms brought against Orthodox ecumenical involvement and those concerns which are real and worth addressing — indeed worth addressing in a much more thorough and responsible way than is now being done in our local Orthodox churches. To this end, I focused in large part on trends in some of the anti-ecumenical literature and anti-ecumenical anathemas, and urged greater precision in the use of the word “ecumenism.”

As it stands now, many people define ecumenism as the heretical ecclesiology which holds that the “World Church” consists in a combination of all of the existing Christian bodies today, Orthodox, Roman Catholic and Protestant. The problem arises when the same people go on to call an Orthodox person, organization or church “ecumenist,” for in so doing they are by their own definition labeling them as adherents of a heretical ecclesiology. That is a very serious accusation, and in nearly every case it is false.

It needs continually to be made clear that for an Orthodox Church to be a member of an ecumenical institution such as the World Council of Churches, or for an Orthodox Christian to participate in ecumenical dialogues, does not oblige him or her to take a heretical view of the Church.

Indeed, most Orthodox use the term “ecumenism” to refer simply to inter-Christian dialogue and cooperation, and if they come out in support of “ecumenism” they mean something very different than “ecumenism” as defined by its detractors. A well-informed and constructive participation in ecumenical forums is a part of the Orthodox mission responsibility, and this is by no means a novel view: it has been evident since the inception of the modern ecumenical movement in the early decades of this century. Understood in this way, Orthodox ecumenism is certainly not “a contradiction in terms.” It was heartening to see that virtually all the responses to my article reflected agreement with this point.

Secondly, while I did not go into the specific problems inherent in the contemporary manifestations of the ecumenical movement, or the inevitable shortcomings of Orthodox participants (who are fallen human persons), I did want to indicate that problems exist. To name one: ecumenical encounters tend to be based upon Western, most often Protestant, concepts and within Western, chiefly Protestant, institutions. For these reasons, as well as because of apathies and inconsistencies within the Orthodox churches, the Orthodox are a minority voice.

A vital implication of this is that even as the Orthodox rightly continue to work towards better representation in ecumenical meetings and forums, we also have to re-examine our commitment to ecumenism through a serious appraisal of how our vision of the Church can work within today’s ecumenical realities and today’s ecumenical forums. We have reached the point where we need either to improve the quality of our participation so that it becomes truly prophetic, or we must indeed consider shifting our participation in some forums in the direction of the “observer status” now held by the Roman Catholic Church.

As we engage assessing our participation, however, there are several pitfalls which need to be avoided. One mistake is to treat ecumenism generally, and the WCC in specific, as a monolithic and undifferentiated phenomenon. As opponents of any movement or trend are apt to do, opponents of “ecumenism” often isolate and combine certain unrepresentative events and statements to paint a cataclysmic portrait of the WCC or of what they call ecumenism.

For example, two events which occurred at the WCC’s last General Assembly at Canberra in 1991 have come in the minds of some people to represent everything that the WCC stands for. One was the opening worship service of that Assembly, where Assembly participants walked through incense to enter the place of worship, and where they saw Aboriginal members of the Anglican Church in their traditional scanty dress, dancing and playing traditional instruments on the stage. (A separate essay could be written about both the problems and the non-problems of this event.) The other episode was a presentation at a plenary session of the Assembly, where a Korean feminist theologian invoked the spirits of “earth, air, water and sea creatures.”

These happenings do indeed require measures of explanation and/or protest — and latter event in particular has justly received harsh criticism from the Orthodox participants of the Assembly, as documented by the minutes. But they have been telescoped in such a way as to suggest that this kind of thing is all the WCC ever does. Symptomatic of this distortion is the fact, for instance, that in one response letter (cf. In Communion, Oct. 1997, p. 31) the two events are conflated into one, even though they in fact occurred in separate settings on two separate days, and in another letter (p. 30) we read that the ecumenical institutions are run by “neo-Pagans.”

Another mistake is to judge the events and statements emanating from the ecumenical movement or from WCC officials as if they had authority, whether doctrinal or ecclesiastical, over the Orthodox Church or over anybody. If it were true that anything written in a WCC message or anything said by a WCC official had binding authority on the member churches then the Orthodox would have withdrawn long ago or never would have joined. Indeed, much is said and done in the WCC that runs counter to Orthodox doctrine and ethos.

As Patriarch Bartholomeos has recently stated, “There is no doubt that things occur in the WCC that the Orthodox Churches disagree with. But we must be there to correct these mistakes.” Being a minority voice in the institutional ecumenical movement, and furthermore as a voice fragmented by our own internal problems, Orthodox participants surely find this task of “correction” all the more arduous. And here two things need to be admitted: that not all the necessary corrections are always made, and that Orthodox “corrections” are sometimes made in a way which, to Westerners at least, seems ill-advised and clumsy. But it is better that we are there at all. As the French say, “Les absents ont toujours tort” — the absent are always proved wrong.

A further mistake within Orthodox discussion on the ecumenical question is to approach statements and texts produced through ecumenical processes with unreasonable expectations. Very often people expect everything coming from an inter-Christian forum to sound as if it emanated from an Orthodox synod or an Orthodox dogmatics text.

A certain amount of realism is necessary when considering, for one, that the documents emerging from ecumenical encounters are the product of a great variety of processes, and they have an equally great variety of intended uses. So here, as with all texts, the reader is responsible for applying the appropriate mode of interpretation: is this a doctrinal statement, a policy document for my church or a proposal for discussion? Is this a speech by one individual, the product of a meeting of ten people, or the process of ten years of conferences and church responses?

In addition to asking such questions, it must be borne in mind that the persons in dialogue with the Orthodox have generally come from generations of Protestantism, Anglicanism or Roman Catholicism, and whether or not their views are mistaken on a given subject, they are often as convinced of them as we are convinced of ours. These views are not apt to change quickly. To take an example, in reading a document such as Baptism, Eucharist and Ministry, a text produced by the Faith and Order Commission in 1982, or Confessing the One Faith, a book which studies the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed, one will find portions that are problematic or unOrthodox; but one must also take heart in the remarkable degree of Orthodox influence. If one only knows how weak a doctrine of the Eucharist is held in some Protestant circles, it becomes clear that much of the BEM text constitutes for them a great challenge, indeed a challenge from Orthodoxy. The BEM text has encouraged a liturgical and eucharistic revival in many Protestant quarters.

The realism called for above does not exonerate us from the responsibility of reviewing ecumenical texts with great care and with the intent of correcting them in a constructive fashion. (Would that there were more Orthodox who were ready and willing for this task!) Our vision of Church unity rests on the criteria of the Orthodox Church, a eucharistic understanding of unity which is based on unity in faith — the apostolic, patristic, Orthodox faith. The WCC is, for us, a council of Orthodox and non-Orthodox Christian bodies (we use the term “churches” in a dictionary sense rather than a dogmatic sense), which encounter each other in dialogue and cooperative efforts based on a certain, though incomplete, agreement in Christian belief and practice.

Now it is quite true that the vision of many Protestants and Anglicans differs significantly: for these, the “Universal Church” consists in something like a combination of the various Christian traditions, and the WCC, insofar as it represents these traditions, can be seen as something of a model or provisional structure for this “Church.” This false ecclesiological vision, insofar as it does undergird the theology of many participants in the ecumenical encounter, is liable to inform certain of the WCC’s statements or portions thereof, particularly when these have not been attentively reviewed by a larger constituency. And thus, while the commitment not to impose on one another any view of the Church, “branch” or otherwise, or any ecclesial character to the WCC, is firmly in place in the past and present policy documents, a constructive attentiveness to the witting or unwitting violations of that commitment is entirely appropriate.

Many aspects of the ecumenical realism I am trying to describe can be found in the writings of Fr. John Meyendorff. His essays in Witness to the World (St. Vladimir’s Seminary Press, 1987) testify to his unparalleled understanding of Orthodox Church history and doctrine, as well as his experiences, both good and bad, as an active participant in the ecumenical movement. While citing honestly the problems of the ecumenical endeavor, including the decay in its quality which is quite rightly cited by several OPF respondents, and while clearly delineating between “true” and “false” ecumenism, he notes that “the awareness that ‘wrong’ ecumenism is indeed heresy should not lead us to forget the mission of our Church to the world, to the people around us, to those who sincerely seek the truth, for, as we forget this mission, we cease to be truly ‘catholic’ and ‘orthodox’ and become nothing but an introverted sect” (pp. 43-44).

He writes, too, that “the self-proclaimed defenders of Orthodoxy who try to suggest that the Orthodox participation in the WCC implies the adoption of non-Orthodox views on Church unity and Christian truth are deceiving themselves and those who listen to them” (pp. 35-36).

Concerning another hot issue, Fr. Meyendorff writes that “if sacramental intercommunion remains, of course, excluded for Orthodox as long as true union in faith is not achieved, other forms of prayer with the non-Orthodox are certainly possible, for the canons which forbid ‘prayer with heretics’ had in view conscious apostates from the Church and not sincere Christians who never personally left it” (p. 46).

All this said, I return to the point that the ecumenical movement is problematic on many levels, and we Orthodox need to be discussing the precise nature and character of our involvement at all strata of church life. My purpose in the “Orthodox Ecumenism” essay and in this postscript has not been to account for all the problems and insufficiencies, nor to act as a spokesman for the WCC or any ecumenical institution, nor indeed to attack any particular group holding anti-ecumenical opinions, but to facilitate that discussion, working towards disentangling the real issues from among the half-real and the unreal.

There is a lot of static on the radio which needs to be tuned out so that the true problems — and the true opportunities — of today’s ecumenical movement can be realized.

Peter Bouteneff is Executive Secretary of the Faith and Order Commission of the World Council of Churches. He has a master of divinity degree from St. Vladimir’s Seminary and a doctor of philosophy degree from Oxford University.


This ladies and gentlemen is the voice of reason. Please listen.

God Bless

Peter

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Metropolitan Isaiah a True Bishop NOT A POLITICIAN!

Post by Papoutsis1 »

Please read the word of a true Bishop, Bishop Isaiah of the Denver Archdioces of the Greek Orthodox Archdioces of America:


The following article is taken from the December 1997 issue of the Diocesan News of the Greek Orthodox Diocese of Denver, reprinted also in the OCA newspaper “The Orthodox Church”. It is excerpted below. The full article, which addresses issues also of the reception of converts into the Orthodox Church, can be viewed on the Denver Diocese’s web page.

In regard to the second concern, there has been widespread, indiscriminate, and irresponsible use of the terms “heretical” and “schismatic” by some individuals to condemn and excoriate those hierarchs and jurisdictions with whom they are not in agreement. First, the distinction between heresy and schism should be clearly defined and understood.

Heresies are doctrines (teachings and beliefs) that contravene revealed characteristics of God’s nature, and are therefore condemned by the Church as fraudulent. Heresies contradict the irrefutable and eternally true statements of fact that have been cautiously proclaimed by the Church as dogmas which describe the correct (orthodox) understanding about an aspect of God. Belief in a heresy cuts one off from the Body of Christ; i.e., puts one outside the Church.

A schism is an administrative breach of communion within the Church. It does not necessarily place the party or parties outside the Church permanently, although it is a separation from the Body of the Church. Schismatics share the same faith and uphold the same dogmatic principles; yet they refute the existing communion in faith because of some lesser disagreement.

It can be said that of the two, schism is worse than heresy. Presuming that a heretic is sincere in his belief - however erroneous - it could be that God may at least judge him on the basis of his sincerity, his personal integrity, and his consistency of action in regard to his principles. The schismatic, on the other hand, has willfully separated himself from others who share the same beliefs, thus denying the truth that unity and communion exist in the very confession of the same truth. Heresy might be seen as a sin of error, while schism is a sin against truth itself.

With this in mind, the canonical principle universally followed in the Orthodox Church is that clergy may only separate themselves from the authority of their Bishop (or from communion with others) when he is/they are in heresy - actually one might say that a heretical hierarch has separated himself from his flock by his heretical act. A determination of heretical standing, however, is a consensus of the whole Church, not merely of clergy and laity but also of the Synod to which that Bishop belongs - it is never a matter of personal opinion and judgment. Clergy are not free to transfer themselves from the authority of one bishop, nor do they even request their own release from their Bishop to another. The canonical procedure is that a Bishop may request of another Bishop the release of a particular clergyman. By the same token, a Bishop may not receive under his obedience any clergyman who has not been released by his canonical Bishop.

The laity, on the other hand, do transfer freely from one parish to another, and from one Dicoese to another, according to the circumstances of their geographic travels. It is most prudent, however, that the laity move between parishes and/or jurisdictions in their immediate locale only after seeking the guidance of their spiritual father, confessor or pastor.

Tragically, however, there are clergy who, without the blessing of their Bishop, separate themselves from him and seek to be recognized and received by another hierarch. Worse, they justify their actions by denouncing their bishop as a heretic and/or declaring their former jurisdiction as being “without grace.” Such actions carry with them the most grave responsibility - and potentially the most severe consequences - because an accounting will be demanded of them by God at their judgment. The most woeful and grievous act that they sometimes commit is that they sometimes even encourage other clergy and laity to follow them. These actions are extremely dangerous and are filled with peril: it should be very clear that to denounce a Bishop as a heretic is an extreme action that can never be taken lightly and certainly never for reasons of personal animosity.

Yet, with increasing frequency Bishops - particularly those associated with SCOBA - are being accused of apostasy and heresy (especially of the “Heresy of Ecumenism”) by renegade and irresponsible (or at least grossly misinformed) individuals. To be sure, the Ecumenist notion of ignoring theological differences between denominations and the supposed union in some sort of world-religion Ecumenical faith is truly a Pan-Heresy insofar as it proposes a ridiculous conglomeration of Western, heterodox Christian theologies, each of which to one degree or another embraces various of the ancient heresies that have been denounced and condemned as anathema by the local and Ecumenical Councils of the historic and Apostolic Orthodox Church.

It should be made very clear, however, that the official Orthodox participation in the international, national, and local Ecumenical organizations has as its sole purpose the opening of dialogue with the heterodox in the hope that they will eventually be united with us in professing the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Orthodox faith. Whether these dialogues will in fact result in such a hoped-for return of the heterodox to the Orthodox Church remains arguable; such discussions necessarily can only take place at the level of secondary or intellectual - rather than essential or spiritual - theology.

During his recent visit to the United States, Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew stated repeatedly that he prays and hopes for the union of all Christians, while very clearly underscoring that this must be a unity in faith - specifically in the Orthodox faith which he stressed is the only genuine and true Christian faith. Lest anyone believe that the Ecumenical Patriarchate, or the Patriarch of Constantinople himself, wishes to capitulate to the Pan- Heresy of Ecumenism, witness the consternation of other religious leaders upon hearing these words from His All Holiness as we widely reported in the national, secular media.

On the other hand, individual participation in the Ecumenical organizations by Orthodox laity, clergy, and hierarchs is solely on a personal basis and might before many and varied reasons or purposes. Should such individuals - or for that matter any other of the faithful - hold a personal view that “all religions are the same,” that “all gods are one,” or other such erroneous and illogical notions, they are in error, misinformed, or not thinking clearly - and such fact can place them outside the Body of Christ.

Likewise a hierarch who personally holds some belief or opinion at odds with the teaching of the Church, and perhaps expresses this to others, is a sinner - and can be outside the Body of Christ. Yet, the personal sins and failures of clergy - however great - do not transfer to, and thus do not negate, the reality of the Mysteries they celebrate. To be sure, it would be tragic if they did because we acknowledge that no one lives and does not sin: for Jesus Christ is alone without sin! Even if a hierarch or other clergyman commits actions that are sinful and even scandalous to the Church, he alone bears responsibility at his judgment before God for his sins and for any attendant scandal. But this does not necessarily place him outside the Church, obviate the Mysteries he celebrates, or invalidate the ecclesial office he holds.

Only when a hierarch, other clergyman, or layperson holds - and moreover maintains in knowing disregard for the teachings and admonitions of the Church - some antithetical belief contrary to the dogma of the Orthodox faith is he ever denounced as a heretic and his beliefs accursed as anathema. It is solely these individuals who are considered to be outside the Church and thus not united to the Body of Christ. Their eternal disposition, however, will be determined by God alone - the only all-good and all-righteous Judge.

Yet, certain clergy and laity have even casually and offhandedly dismissed some hierarchs and synods in America as being heretical and outside the Church. We thus rightly ask: Where are such heretical Bishops? Which of our hierarchs has publicly maintained and held to a heretical belief and refused to submit to the authority and discipline of the Church? Who are these supposedly apostate and dissident Bishops?

Let us be clear to distinguish between heretical and sinful Bishops - indeed between heretical and sinful priests, deacons, and laity. Sinful people are, of course, ubiquitous; each and every one of us is a sinner. But this fact does not obviate the sanctity of the Body of Christ to which we are joined and of which we are members - lest our sins somehow have condemned Christ Himself and the gates of hell do in fact prevail against His Church.

Quite the contrary: we are joined to His Body, the Church, so that our sins might be remitted and that we might receive His righteousness in place of our iniquities. Let us also carefully note that even such luminaries of the Church as the Blessed Augustine and Saint Gregory of Nyssa were never branded as heretics nor declared anathema although their personal writings and thoughts have been deemed by the Church to contain errors and notions inconsistent with our Apostolic faith. Our Bishops always support, teach, and defend the Apostolic faith and the dogmas of our Orthodox Church despite any personal misgivings or doubts and notwithstanding their private and public sins and errors.

.Renascent Donatism. The great danger posed to the Orthodox Church in North America today is renascent Donatism. Individuals who believe that the efficacy or reality of a Mystery depends upon the spiritual condition of the clergyman who celebrates them affirm the heretical belief called Donatism which was condemned as a heresy by the Council of Carthage in AD 404.

The Donatist heresy manifests itself also when individuals proclaim that certain churches or jurisdictions - and thus their Mysteries - are “without grace.” This is a sin against the Holy Spirit Who manifests Himself both within and without the Orthodox Church according to the Divine Will. Such Donatistic denial of grace is often a subterfuge to which individuals may resort when trying to justify either their abandonment of their own Bishop or the condemnation of a supposed schismatic element in the Church. Donatistic positions are often assumed by those who are overly preoccupied by juridical correctness and jurisdictional canonicity. Perhaps it would be better to avoid such legalisms, which in any event are foreign to the Orthodox fronema (mind set), and simply to accept the fact that canonical anomalies are currently unavoidable in the new and unusual administrative circumstances encountered by the Orthodox Church in this multi-national, multi-ethnic, heterogeneous American society.

Legalists who misuse the Sacred Canons and the Holy Fathers to hurt innocent people - or even guilty people, for that matter - are not champions of the Faith and traditionalists. They are misanthropes - haters of their fellow men - which is a terrible sin.

“Love without truth is false; truth without love is ingenuine.”

posted April 15, 1998


AMEN!

Peter

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I Don't Support Papism

Post by Papoutsis1 »

One small correction in the title to this thread. I DON'T support Papism. I do not believ nor have I ever believed that Rome has Jurisdictional authority over our Church, nor do I believe that Rome had the right to authorize the addition to our Creed. Please correct the title of this thread.

God Bless

Peter

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