For All Those Who Doubt the MP Still Supports Communism

[Pravoslavnik]

The well documented history of the Soviet state vis a vis the Russian Orthodox Church is about as black and white as anything can be in the history of Christendom. The Soviets were atheists, who had a very conscious goal of destroying the Orthodox Church--an "opiate" of the masses--and infiltrating and manipulating the administration of the Church to achieve the political goals of the Soviet state. Anyone who doubts this has not read the Mitrokhin archives, published at Cambridge University in 1999 as The Sword and the Shield. An entire chapter of this book is devoted to the documents relating to the history of the KGB infiltration and control of the Moscow Patriarchate during the past century, right down to the present.

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   A second major reference work on the history of the Soviet persecution of the Church is [i]Russia's Catacomb Saints[/i], by I.M. Andreyev, published by St. Herman's Press in the 1980's in its original edition.  This book includes rather detailed descriptions of the lives of many Russian Orthodox martyrs who were incarcerated and murdered by the Soviet government at sites like the Solovki Monastery concentration camp, where the Soviet police turned the altars of the Church into urinals.  This book also contains important Church documents about the Soviet administration of Metropoitan Sergius Stragodorsky, and the catacomb Church hierarchs--including the last surviving epistles of Metropolitan Cyril of Kazan, the last Locum Tenans Patriarch designated by St. Tikhon.

   If someone, here or anywhere, is denying that the Soviet persecution and manipulation of the Orthodox Church is pure, Satanic evil, they are either 1) ignorant of history, 2) in denial of the truth, or 3) deliberately trying to deceive modern Orthodox Christians about the nature of good and evil in the recent history of Orthodox Christianity and Soviet Russia.  The last group are people working in one capacity or another for the neo-Soviet government/ MP to achieve the political goals of the Putin administration and FSB in world and Church affairs.

[Pravoslavnik]

I should add one addendum to my above comments about the Soviet state, related to the photo of the former Soviet soldiers. These Soviet soldiers sacrificed a great deal to save Russia from the Nazi's, and I do not presume to judge them. My comments are about the Satanic policies of the Soviet state toward the Russian Orthodox Church are in reference to Soviet leaders like Lenin, Stalin, Beria, Kruschev, and others, and are not intended as a criticism of Soviet citizens, in general. Please forgive me if I have offended anyone in this regard.

[Helen]

Thanks for the comments. A few points though. You would never see this in any Catacomb Church or in the old days of ROCOR (or at least not at parishes that believed that the MP was truly evil along with the Soviet government). And secondly, I could never be proud of fighting for a nation that killed millions of Orthodox Christians. Put in another way, would you be proud if you were a Nazi and had fought for their godless regime? I wouldn't, so if I had fought for a government which ruthlessly slaughtered people and was completely atheist (and still is) I'm not so sure I could be proud of that. I can see what you mean about patriotism, that in and of itself isn't bad, but when it is for an inherently evil government, I couldn't participate in that.

Let’s put it another way. You’re living in Leningrad during WW2. The city is under siege by the Nazi’s. Your wife, children, parents, relatives and friends are dying from hunger. Leningrad is dying from hunger. Your friends have enlisted in the army and are fighting in the war to defend their country. (Country is not some abstract concept for Russia – it is real living people with whom you are historically and integrally bound through blood). In the mean time, Stalin is propagating a clever and relentless campaign to enlist Russian men into the army. “The motherland is calling you”. Are you really going to sit back just so you can keep your ideological purity intact?

If it was ok to fight for the Soviets according to Orthodoxy, then that would mean the Catacombniks died in vain, as they could have just been like everyone else and joined the military to fight for the Soviet government and not worried about going against Orthodox teachings. But because they knew the Soviet government was evil, and against Orthodox teachings, they refused to fight and became martyrs (I'm not saying here that you believe that the Catacombniks died in vain, I'm sure you don't really believe that, but that logic seems to follow from what you've said).

I’m not saying the Catacombniks died in vain. Everyone’s situation is extremely unique and personal. There were saints who fought against each other - does that mean they weren’t saints themselves? A pre-Revolutionary book, ‘Staretz Ambrosy of Optina’ by Archmandrite Agapit, speaks about this very issue. Staretz Ambrosy, in one of his letters, explains the different expressions of religiosity by looking at different characters of individuals. He tells the story of a very zealous and straightforward lover of truth, Fr. Mathew Rzevsky, living in Moscow during the tenure of Metropolitan Philaret of Moscow. Fr.Mathew and his parishioners and followers were indignant towards the Metropolitan because they believed he acted indifferently on important Church issues. Metropolitan Philaret (who is a canonised saint) on the other had, believed in acting decisively only if he could envision a positive outcome. After the deaths of both the Metropolitan and the priest, a parishioner had a vision of both of them in heaven standing next to each other. Staretz Ambrose explains that although they had different views and approaches on how things need to be done in Church, and were in conflict with each other, they both worked for the Lord from all their hearts and souls, ACCORDING to their different characters and situations. In the scriptures it also says: "The man looks at the outside, but God looks and sees into the heart of man".

P.S. Where did you read or hear that they didn’t fight in the war? I haven’t come across such information yet.

[Helen]

If someone, here or anywhere, is denying that the Soviet persecution and manipulation of the Orthodox Church is pure, Satanic evil, they are either 1) ignorant of history, 2) in denial of the truth, or 3) deliberately trying to deceive modern Orthodox Christians about the nature of good and evil in the recent history of Orthodox Christianity and Soviet Russia. The last group are people working in one capacity or another for the neo-Soviet government/ MP to achieve the political goals of the Putin administration and FSB in world and Church affairs.

I seriously doubt anyone on this forum is denying that Communism is pure satanic evil. The nature of Communism is not the issue that is being discussed in this thread. Communism and the people that lived under the communist yoke are totally different concepts. The vast majority of Russians laugh at the Soviet system - you will find few Russians who are firm Soviet supporters. And this is the way it was when they were living under the communism as well. Even though they may have been members of Communist parties, no-one was fooled by the nature of Communism. Give us a little more credit, please!

I should add one addendum to my above comments about the Soviet state, related to the photo of the former Soviet soldiers. These Soviet soldiers sacrificed a great deal to save Russia from the Nazi's, and I do not presume to judge them. My comments are about the Satanic policies of the Soviet state toward the Russian Orthodox Church are in reference to Soviet leaders like Lenin, Stalin, Beria, Kruschev, and others, and are not intended as a criticism of Soviet citizens, in general. Please forgive me if I have offended anyone in this regard.

The posts on this thread are also not analyzing the Soviet state and it's policies. So why bring them up in the first place?

[drewmeister2]

Let’s put it another way. You’re living in Leningrad during WW2. The city is under siege by the Nazi’s. Your wife, children, parents, relatives and friends are dying from hunger. Leningrad is dying from hunger. Your friends have enlisted in the army and are fighting in the war to defend their country. (Country is not some abstract concept for Russia – it is real living people with whom you are historically and integrally bound through blood). In the mean time, Stalin is propagating a clever and relentless campaign to enlist Russian men into the army. “The motherland is calling you”. Are you really going to sit back just so you can keep your ideological purity intact?

It's not about my ideology, its about my faith. So what if I'm starving by the Nazis. So I go fight for the Soviets who have just burned down my Church, how could I justify that? What am I fighting for then? I am not fighting for my family only, I am fighting for the Soviets to be able to continue to burn down and destroy and kill more Orthodox Christians. Let's say I do go actually fight for the Soviets, when I come back I am going to go back into the Catacombs and follow the Catacombnik bishops since I believe the MP is in heresy and then they will make me suffer just like the Nazis did, possibly even worse than the Nazis made me suffer. So either way, I don't see how suffering is an issue here, if you are a Catacombnik you are going to suffer, but that is what has made them so holy.

I do think I see where you are coming from though. I can see that what you mean is that they were not fighting in the war for the Soviets but against the Nazis (basically just taking a different perspective). Problem is, you are still serving under the Soviet flag, and when the Soviets were as evil as they were (and still are), I couldn't justify it. To apply it to modern day, yes, American has made many mistakes, but at least they don't come and destroy our Churches and they let us worship freely. That is the difference, and that is why I would be more comfortable fighting for America even though it has made many mistakes of its own than fighting for the Soviets.

[Грешник]

To apply it to modern day, yes, American has made many mistakes, but at least they don't come and destroy our Churches and they let us worship freely.

Ok, now let us look at the things that this country has done and has sanctioned. You refer to the Church as One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic. Well let us look at the "One" concept. What do you think of AMERICA killing other Orthodox Christians in other countries? Can you sanction this along with your concept of right and wrong? You see, this country, as well as any other has committed atrocities against the Church. As I said before, there is no black and white. The only real black and white that there is is that there are black and white penguins on Antarctica... oh wait... nope.. they are apart of the MP too. Sorry. Ok, so then the only really real black and white is that the Church is One and it will exists in Fullness and Truth til the end of time. And there is a possibility that it might exist in places where you may not think... We will see...

[Helen]

What do you think of AMERICA killing other Orthodox Christians in other countries?

To elaborate on this point:

America bombed one of the Serbian cities on the Orthodox Easter Day. Someone found one of the bombs intact. On it was fixed the message: Happy Easter.

Drewmeister, you still didn't answer one of my questions: Were did you read or hear that the Catacombniks didn't fight in the war?