Women in the priesthood

Patristic theology, and traditional teachings of Orthodoxy from the Church fathers of apostolic times to the present. All forum Rules apply. No polemics. No heated discussions. No name-calling.


User avatar
GOCPriestMark
Moderator
Posts: 621
Joined: Mon 8 August 2005 10:13 pm
Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: GOC-Metropolitan Kirykos
Location: Canada
Contact:

Post by GOCPriestMark »

Archangel wrote:

Gasp! I have never read such brilliant arguments!

This is an interesting subject for your first post. Are you an Orthodox Christian?

In the Orthodox Church there is no need to argue for or against something so deeply ingrained in our Faith. The Word of God was incarnate as a male child. Since it is He after Whom our priesthood is modeled, all our priests will also be male. It is not up for debate in the Orthodox Church, anymore than calling the persons of the Holy Trinity; Father, Son and Holy Spirit would be.

==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==

Priest Mark Smith
British Columbia

Ekaterina
Protoposter
Posts: 1847
Joined: Tue 1 February 2005 8:48 am
Location: New York

Post by Ekaterina »

http://euphrosynoscafe.com/forum/viewto ... sc&start=0

This is where this subject was broached once before. Skip the first page, it got the same reaction you did, but it get better by the end of page two.....

Katya

User avatar
Sean
Member
Posts: 365
Joined: Thu 22 July 2004 6:26 pm
Faith: Old Calendar Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: HOTCA

Post by Sean »

An interesting side note: a full 85% of all female clergy are practicing lesbians.

Some people prefer cupcakes. I, for one, care less for them...

User avatar
GOCTheophan
Member
Posts: 367
Joined: Mon 11 September 2006 7:46 pm
Location: Ireland.
Contact:

Post by GOCTheophan »

Sean wrote:

An interesting side note: a full 85% of all female clergy are practicing lesbians.

Are you serious?

Where did you get that figure from?

To be honest this is not something I have given much thought too for the simple reason that the Priesthood has been all male since the beinging.

Theophan.

Myrrh
Member
Posts: 197
Joined: Mon 18 October 2004 8:00 pm

Post by Myrrh »

Sean wrote:

An interesting side note: a full 85% of all female clergy are practicing lesbians.

It's interesting to note that back when the Anglicans were discussing the issue of ordaining women to the priesthood the most vociferous opponents were the homosexual priests.

"I was increasingly frustrated by the foot-dragging in the Anglican Church over the ordination of women, and was particularly disturbed to see closeted homosexual priests I knew being among the most vocal and misogynist opponents. I believe this attack was fuelled to a considerable extent by their internalized homophobia. The Anglican Church worldwide remains divided on the question of women priests, with some provinces, such as Canada, having female bishops and other provinces, such as England, limiting women's ordination to the priesthood."

http://www.samesexmarriage.ca/docs/Holloway.doc

Myrrh
Member
Posts: 197
Joined: Mon 18 October 2004 8:00 pm

Post by Myrrh »

GOCPriestMark wrote:
Archangel wrote:

Gasp! I have never read such brilliant arguments!

This is an interesting subject for your first post. Are you an Orthodox Christian?

In the Orthodox Church there is no need to argue for or against something so deeply ingrained in our Faith. The Word of God was incarnate as a male child. Since it is He after Whom our priesthood is modeled, all our priests will also be male. It is not up for debate in the Orthodox Church, anymore than calling the persons of the Holy Trinity; Father, Son and Holy Spirit would be.

That Christ was incarnate as a male is of no significance to Orthodox in these arguments - the Greek is man as in mankind, not man as in male -and those giving your argument come from a priesthood in the Western tradition from the RCC which specifically refers back to the leviatical priesthood in which women were marginalised over time until they had no place at all in the ordained priesthood; it should be remembered that our priesthood is the royal, we all offer the sacrifice - the priest is ordained to be the leading voice in this, not as in the Western tradition where the priest alone offers the sacrifice, in other words women in the Orthodox Church have always been priests. The celibacy arguments also have a bearing on this question as the Orthodox fought to keep true understanding of creation and marriage (*). Also, the Orthodox remember, which has been lost in Western traditions, that it was the Mother of God who entered the Holy of Holies, it is through the Mother of God that Christ is our only High Priest, and as before, our priesthood is the royal priesthood, all of us offer the sacrifice.

http://stnina.org/journal/art/1.2.11

Sermon

Sermon: The Significance of the Maleness of Jesus Christ?

Valerie Karras

This sermon was published in the St. Nina Quarterly, Volume 1, No. 2. It was adapted from the first part of a sermon given by the author at the Assumption Greek Orthodox Church, Seattle, Wash. on the feast of the Dormition, August, 1994.

The second part of the sermon explores the Theotokos as an icon for humanity and will be included in our next issue [Vol. 1., No. 3].

Frank Schaeffer, a former evangelical Protestant who recently became Orthodox, in the December 1993 issue of the Orthodox Observer accused those who do not believe Christ's gender to have relevance of being "iconoclastic," that is, of refusing to recognize the reality of His male sexuality. He said that

y ordaining women, "liberal" Protestants are in effect saying, "Christ did not come in the flesh, his maleness does not matter, he is a mere symbol of something larger."

But to the Orthodox Christian, Christ's maleness does matter, just as Mary's femaleness matters.1

I have no intention of entering into a debate here on the ordination of women to the priesthood. However, I would like to respond to both elements of Frank Schaeffer's assertion that the gender of Christ and the Theotokos "matter."

First, what exactly does the theological tradition of the Orthodox Church teach us about the importance of Christ's maleness? Interestingly enough, very little. Schaeffer's assertion that Christ's maleness matters to the Orthodox Christian does not jibe with the writings of our Church Fathers. The Greek Fathers, in fact, are almost unanimously silent on this issue. Bishop Kallistos Ware once told me of a student who came to him with the idea of doing his doctoral dissertation on this very issue: patristic views on the maleness of Christ. Bishop Kallistos responded, "I am afraid that it will be quite a short thesis, since the Fathers don't concern themselves with that question." His curiosity piqued, Bishop Kallistos surveyed the hymnography for the Feast of the Circumcision of Christ. There, if anywhere, he reasoned, Christ's maleness would be emphasized. Yet he found nothing.

Actually, only two Church Fathers assign any significance to Christ's being male rather than female. One is St. Gregory the Theologian.2 But as Verna (Sister Nonna) Harrison shows in an article in the Journal of Theological Studies, the one place where he does assign significance to Christ's being male concerns the symbolic importance of Jesus Christ as the paschal lamb and as the fulfillment of the Old Testament prophecies. Harrison rightly recognized that, "if Christ saves as male, half of the human race is excluded from salvation." In another homily, St. Gregory disregards the fact that Jesus Christ is a male human being and instead balances Christ's redemption of both man and woman:

Christ saves both by his passion. Was he made flesh for the man? So he was also for the woman. Did he die for the man? The woman is also saved by his death. He is called of the seed of David; and so perhaps you think the man is honored. But he is born of a virgin, and this is on the woman's side. Thus the two, he says, shall be one flesh, so let the one flesh have equal honor.3
In other words, for St. Gregory, it is Christ's becoming fully human, sharing our fallen nature in every aspect except sin, that is crucial to our salvation because we are saved by sharing His nature.

The Son of God did, of course, become incarnate as a male human being. But, according to St. Theodore of Stoudios, Christ's maleness is important only because it shows the fullness of his humanity:

Maleness and femaleness are sought only in the forms of bodies, since none of the differences which characterize the sexes can be recognized in bodiless beings. Therefore, if Christ were uncircumscribable [in other words, unable to be depicted in images], as being without a body, He would also be without the difference of sex. But He was born male, as Isaiah says, from "the prophetess" (Is. 8:3); therefore He is circumscribed.4
St. Theodore stands Frank Schaeffer's argument on its head. Schaeffer calls iconoclastic those who deny the spiritual importance of Christ's maleness. Yet St. Theodore, writing against the real iconoclasts of the ninth century, claims that Christ's maleness is important only insofar as it demonstrates His full humanity. The saint specifically denies any significance, or even reality, to gender beyond the physical level.

The Church's emphasis on Christ's humanity rather than on His maleness is even affirmed in our Creed, although unfortunately, most English translations say that He became "man." In the original Greek, we say that Christ became human - enanthropesanta, from anthropos, or human being - not that He became male. Thus, as Verna Harrison notes, the absence of Christ's maleness as an issue for the Greek Fathers, "may well reflect not an oversight but an important theological concern" - that concern being the salvation of all human beings, male and female. Humanity, both male and female, is created in the image of God. We are saved because the person of Jesus Christ is Himself a bridge between God and humanity, being both completely and truly human and completely and truly divine.

Notes.

  1. Orthodox Observer (December 1993), p. 21.

  2. "Oration 45:13", in Philip Schaff and Henry Wace, eds., Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, 2nd series, Vol. 7 (Peabody, Mass.: Hendrickson Publishers, 1994 reprint), p. 427.

  3. "Oration 37:7," in ibid, p. 340.

  4. Antirrhetic III, 45,. in St. Theodore the Studite, On the Holy Icons, trans. Catherine P. Roth (Crestwood, NY: St. Vladimir’s Seminary Press, 1981), p. 94.

(*)

Canon V. (VI.)

Let not a bishop, presbyter, or deacon, put away his wife under pretence of religion; but if he put her away, let him be excommunicated; and if he persists, let him be deposed

CANON LI
If any Bishop, or Presbyter, or Deacon, or anyone at all on the sacerdotal list, abstains from marriage, or meat, or wine, not as
a matter of mortification, but out of an abhorrence thereof, forgetting that all things are exceedingly good, and that God made man male
and female, and blasphemously misrepresenting God's work of creation,
either let him mend his ways or let him be deposed from office
and expelled from the Church. Let a layman be treated similarly.

Myrrh

User avatar
Benjamin W. C. Waterhouse
Jr Member
Posts: 87
Joined: Thu 31 March 2005 9:15 am
Location: Isle of Wight England

Re: Women in the priesthood

Post by Benjamin W. C. Waterhouse »

Archangel wrote:

Should women be given access to the sacerdotal priesthood (deacon, presbyter, bishop)? Let me hear your arguments for or against.

When I can give birth to a child....

In Him
SB

"The Synod of Metropolitan Cyprian adheres wholly to the exact same ecclesiological and dogmatic principles as our Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia,"

Post Reply