Genuine GOC of America: A Proclamation on Ecclesiology

[Orthodox New England]

If one found a huge pearl after completing a search of hundreds and thousands of empty oysters, I doubt one would talk much and be concerned about the empty ones.

Agreed. But where is the pearl? Just the GOC? Are ROAC and ROCiE included? Doesn't this present a problem where ROAC was created in 1996 and ROCiE in 2001? In other words, according to ROAC, a separate jurisdiction (ROAC) needed to be created in order to flee from heretics. Therefore, those in ROCOR (post 1996) were heretics. However, ROCiE members were part of ROCOR from 1996 to 2001. Therefore, ROCiE was created from an heretical church. Hence, ROCiE cannot be Orthodox.

It may seem simple, but you get my point. If I am wrong about this then why are ROAC and ROCiE two separate Russian jurisdictions?

Gregory

[ioannis]

But where is the pearl?

Of course the pearl is the Orthodox faith and through the faith, Christ. Its easy to lose sight of this when one is confronted with a miraid of false versions of Orthodoxy.

The divisions and many schisms attributed to those struggling to maintain the pure faith is understandable. It is very hard for people to accept that the truth could actually be held soley by a "mob".

I can think of many examples, but here is one I like: At the time of St. Basil the dominant faith by far was Arianism under the brand name "Orthodoxy". At that time, there were 3 competing groups of truly Orthodox bishops in Antioch. Among them were several Saints to boot. They would not unite because they did not trust eachothers apostolic succession. Finally, St. Basil wrote to the Western bishops to send bishops so that they could all have any questions about their ordinations put to rest and there could be unity. Upon arrivel, what do you think these Western bishops did? They consecrated a fourth group!

Sounds much like today.

So who would you have been with if you lived at that time, one of the Orthodox groups or the Arians, who had almost all of the churches, "priests", "bishops", power, recognition, and who hardly ever preached Arianism openly?

Well at that time, as it is today, the pearl of the true faith is not found among the powerful masses and all their money. Just like at the time of Christ's earthly life, the pearl is found among the disorganized and dirty mob.

[Orthodox New England]

Well at that time, as it is today, the pearl of the true faith is not found among the powerful masses and all their money. Just like at the time of Christ's earthly life, the pearl is found among the disorganized and dirty mob.

John - That is what I am asking. I know Orthodoxy is the pearl. Who is Orthodox? Who is the dirty mob? Just the GOC? Is ROCOR(L) not Orthodox now? Is ROAC Orthodox, but not ROCiE?

Can you simply say that those groups "against ecuminism" are the only Orthodox? If so, would not all these groups be in communion? Is that not Christ's prayer that "all may be one"?

Obviously, the "branch theory" is heretical. But you must admit that breaking Christ's prayer "that all may be one" is also a great sin.

If one must immediately break communion with those who are heretics, then the opposite must be true: staying out of communion with other Orthodox is a terrible sin.

But back to my question - How can the ROAC recognise the ROCiE as Orthodox? Perhaps Dn Nicholai can answer.

Gregory

[Priest Siluan]

Agreed. But where is the pearl? Just the GOC? Are ROAC and ROCiE included? Doesn't this present a problem where ROAC was created in 1996 and ROCiE in 2001? In other words, according to ROAC, a separate jurisdiction (ROAC) needed to be created in order to flee from heretics. Therefore, those in ROCOR (post 1996) were heretics. However, ROCiE members were part of ROCOR from 1996 to 2001. Therefore, ROCiE was created from an heretical church. Hence, ROCiE cannot be Orthodox.

FROC (ROAC) existed before the "separation" with ROCOR, that is to say FROC (ROAC) was the Church in Russia in communion with ROCOR but it was never "a part "ROCOR. And FROC (ROAC) was not who wanted to separate from ROCOR, but ROCOR who expelled uncanonically the Bishops in Russia (FROC Bishops) and FROC doesn't consider in that time to ROCOR to be heretical but schismatic and this is its position now until ROCOR join to the WO (now it is very near and almost irreversible)

See:
http://www.roacusa.org/1.html

[Priest Siluan]

But back to my question - How can the ROAC recognise the ROCiE as Orthodox? Perhaps Dn Nicholai can answer.

Forgive me for my interference, I have not wanted to respond for the dear Father Nikolai but I will try to reply this point. Although they (ROCiE) have had some canonical irregularities, we consider them to be orthodox and to have a similar ecclesiology to our one.

[尼古拉前执事]

Father Siluan is of course correct. At the ROAC America: Russian Orthodox Autonomous Church of America official web site we have a few articles on this very item. The documents page is at http://www.ROACusa.org/documents.html and I would recommend the articles under the heading "HISTORICAL DOCUMENTS OF THE ROAC OF AMERICA" such as:

• 2000 Protocol 70: Address of Our Synod to the ROCOR

• Address of the 8th Congress of the Clergy, Monastics and Laity to all those in the Fatherland and in the Diaspora

• 2001 Declaration of Metropolitan Valentine Concerning the Treacherous Eviction of Metropolitan Vitaly by the ROCOR

Many people may not know, but when Vladyka Vitaly felt he was being forcefully evicted from the Synod building, a limo that Father Vladimir Shishkoff had rented containing himself and our Metropolitan Valentine was heading toward the site of the destroyed Twin Towers and passed the Synod meeting. There, they found Metropolitan Vitaly outside without a ryassa, or a panagia, or a skoufia. They offered the Metropolitan (Viitaly) a ride to Father Vladimir's house and on the way, our Vladyka Valentine gave to Metropoliatan Vitaly a ryassa, a panagia, and a skoufia of his own. Unfortunatley the talks did not unite what would soon become the ROCiE and the ROAC at that time, but still we pray that one day this is overcome.

The ROAC has never condemned the ROCOR as graceless heretics but said that they were on the path to union with graceless heretics that would cause them to fall under the various anathemas against the Sergianists and Ecumenists.

[GOCTheophan]

Dear Gregory,

I am well aware that ROCOR had parishes under its protection that used the New Calendar, also I am aware that Patriarch Thikon briefly put the Russian Church under it though pulled back from that destructive course- again I do not believe, nor do I believe the Synod I am under believes that the New Calendar is in and of itself Graceless (remember that we were in Communion with ROCOR when it had New Calendar parishes- a fact that we were not happy about but never the less we did not say that having them made them or ROCOR as a whole Graceless).

However it is a schismatic act and the way and the reasons it was introduced by the Ecumenical Patriarchate were very different than in the case of ROCOR (which was that of pastoral love and economny as opposed to Papist style tryanny and false ecumenism)- the Greek State Church was declared to be Graceless and schismatic by a synod of True Orthodox Bishops 11 years after the demonic innovation was introduced who until very recently ROCOR expected as being valid Bishops.

Never the less ROCOR people even before the year 2000 seem to get annoyed with anyone saying that the New Calendarists are "Graceless" all the while they are happy to treat a large segment of its flock in Russia (what became ROAC) in an off hand and extremely "uncaring" manner and inisist that they have been deprived of the Grace of the Sacraments.

Again ROCOR is keen to stress that it considers OCA to be within the Sacred enclosure of the Church but considers any talk of the Orthodox remanent that continued on under Met Vitaly having Sacraments as utter blasemphy. ROCOR-L seems keen to have no enemnies to it's "left".

If ROCOR doesnt engage in talks with the hetrodox what has its discussions with the MP which contains every weird opinion under the sun ( you can believe what you want to there as long as you commerate Patriarch Alexis) been about? Remember for all intents and purposes ROCOR in western Europe is now in the World Council of Churches.

Theophan.