DECEPTION by Tatiana Senina

Patristic theology, and traditional teachings of Orthodoxy from the Church fathers of apostolic times to the present. All forum Rules apply. No polemics. No heated discussions. No name-calling.


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7. "What do you believe?"

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  1. "What do you believe?"

Let us leave discussions about over canons and dogmas aside for a moment: the majority of contemporary believers are not particularly versed in them. However, this serves neither to their honour nor to their justification, since believers must know their faith; but it often happens with us that some believers know the finest subtleties of the earthly sciences, but do not wish to know the heavenly science, saying that "the most important thing is what is in the soul", or, even worse than this, that the study of Orthodoxy and the Church canons is a matter "for those specially appointed to it", the bishops or priests, "but it is not our business". Let us look at the matter in a simpler manner, so to speak, from an "everyday" point of view. What do contemporary "Orthodox" believers believe in?

If you ask: "Do you believe in God?" they reply in the affirmative. But what beyond that? Very often they display a consumerist psychology, which, moreover, is greatly facilitated by contemporary market relationships, which have penetrated deeply into church life. For example, a "believer" comes into the church and asks, not about how he should repent, cleanse himself, change his life, live according to the commandments, but about which icon he should put a candle in front of, "so that things may go well". He comes when a complicated situation in daily life confronts him, in the hope that "God will sort it out". Or when someone has fallen ill or fallen into some misfortune, he will ask for deliverance. And often he receives help, but then it almost always turns out as the Lord described in the parable of the ten healed lepers? And it happens that the person does not receive what he asks for, in which case he may then decide in himself that God does not exist, without thinking that what he asked for was perhaps to his profit? But one rarely finds the recognition that much in a person's life does not turn out well because he is simply living incorrectly, in an unchristian manner, and that he has to change something in his manner of life radically change it, moreover.

Of course it is difficult to expect great awareness in these questions in people who have come to the church for the first time. And it is at this point that pastors should explain to the people that the Church exists not only for the placing of candles and to get consolation in the beauty of the icons and chandeliers.

If we examine the views of the contemporary bishops of "official Orthodoxy", in general they roughly come down to the same "everyday" interests: the mission of the Church consists in facilitating "the friendship of the peoples" and peace on earth, so that there should be no war or international tension, so that everyone should love each other and care for "universal human values"; it consists in the regeneration, for example, of "Great Russia", in the recreation of "trampled on holy things", etc., etc. "so that everything should go well for everybody".

But why should the Church worry about this, and not about Orthodoxy? Why care for "universal human values" And what are these values, what do they consist of, where is their source? Why regenerate Russia without regenerating True Orthodoxy? What is the need for such a "false" Russia? After all, she collapsed precisely because Orthodoxy was not preserved! Why do people often link the regeneration of Orthodoxy with the regeneration of Russia, and not the other way round? For example, one meets believers who are ready to support even the communists not because they have suddenly become Orthodox, but because they supposedly stand "for a strong Russia".

Many people go to church for "consolation": life now is hard and joyless, all routine things are boring, people want something "spiritual" sweet singing, golden iconostases, imposing batyushkas in elegant vestments? But faith and the Church do not exist in order that there should be more consolations in this world , or in order that one should find some good company in the church that delivers one from the feeling of loneliness and not being needed, but in order that one should prepare oneself for another life and to this end it is not much to visit the church once a week, hand in notes and have pious conversations with acquaintances about the corruption of the world and the necessity of going to the Church. One has to fight with oneself, renounce the world and that which is valued in it (and this renunciation is an absolute condition of salvation not only for monks, but also for laymen, for every Christian; for the Gospel is the same for everybody: "love not the world, nor the things that are in the world" (I John 2.15)), abandon whatever sinful habits you may have or your sinful mode of life as a whole, renounce worldly "consolations" and that, not for the sake of immediately receiving spiritual consolations, but simply out of love for God and a striving to live in accordance with His commandments. But when you begin to talk about this, you immediately come up against incomprehension, even offence. Many people want to legalise their lawlessness in life not only in a secular way, but also in an ecclesiastical manner, for which they are ready to pay even large sums of money. And then we find patriarchal batyushkas "blessing", for money, whatever you like, only so long as people can live "more comfortably" with the consciousness that "God's goodwill" for their way of life is already guaranteed with the help of the batyushkas who are in charge of it. Other pastors, however, put on a "strict" face, saying: "Dont do this, do this!" but all this is normal within the bounds either of the worldly interests of the flock, or of the ambitious strivings of the pastors; but real salvation of the soul interests neither the former nor the latter.

But what do contemporary "believers" believe in? How do they square up this ecclesiastical reality with the life of the saints and ascetics, with the patristic teaching on salvation, with the words of the Lord on the narrow way, on the bearing of one's cross, on "hating one's soul" for the sake of the Gospel? Where has the Apostle's commandment on unceasing prayer been lost, and on the necessity for those who use this world not to use it, as it were? Where is heed paid to the apostle's words on false teachings and heresies? And in general: what relationship does the whole Gospel have to contemporary "faith"

And yet contemporary believers still go to services, pray, feel compunction, even weep! ? But what is the value of "spiritual feelings" when standing at prayer in church, when after them the person calmly returns to his everyday life ("I've been to church, now I must get down to business") Why read the lives of the saints if the position is wittingly taken that "such heights are not for us, sinful and weak ones, so there's nothing to strive for" How can one regenerate "spirituality" in the people if the pastors say that Church canons, rules and asceticism are one thing, but "simple life" something else? And can one expect a person to understand the canons, heresies, etc., if he at times even considers it unnecessary to keep the fasts? Finally, even Catholics and other heretics or Muslims also have sometimes even more "spiritual" feelings on a religious basis. So in general why go into an Orthodox church if you are seeking such spirituality? Perhaps it's more worth your while to go to a Catholic church or a mosque the more so in that Muslims are often much more zealous in relation to everything that concerns their faith than the Christians?

At this point, incidentally, I remember one more argument that is often used by us in trying to draw unbelievers into the Church. For example, a person is looking for faith, he is striving for something spiritual and by chance is attracted by Buddhism or some other false teaching. An Orthodox says to him in horror: "What, how is it possible?! A Russian person can only be Orthodox!" A wonderful argument! So a Tibetan or Buryat, for example, can only be a Buddhist? After all, this is their historical religion? And an Italian can only be a Catholic? That's a good method of argument one has to be Orthodox, not because the truth is in Orthodoxy, but because Orthodoxy is the historical religion in Russia! And what if a person then goes to live in the East can he then become a Muslim??

It's still worse when a person keeps the fasts, fulfils his prayer rule, goes to church once a week and is content with that? as if he were already a completely respectable Christian. But such "piety" was reproached by St. John Chrysostom?

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8. "The Influence of Error"

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  1. "The Influence of Error"

"It is significant that amidst the more "spiritual believers" you most often meet the following strivings: to hand oneself over "into obedience to a spiritual father", to fight "for the regeneration of Russia" and search out "signs of the approach of the Antichrist".

St. John of the Ladder says: "Just as every fruit is preceded by a flower, so exile either of body or of will precedes every obedience" (Word 4.1). Therefore it is incomprehensible how these people, who not only are not intending to renounce the world and worldly habits, but in general say that this is not for them, but "for monks", can hope to be saved by obedience. And how do those spiritual fathers who do not consider it necessary to tear their children from worldly habits and attachments, and do not themselves try to be delivered from them, dare to demand unquestioning obedience to themselves? Concerning such people the same St. John of the Ladder not only did not assert that they could be capable of any obedience or leadership of others, but he said: "The Lord gave judgement concerning all living in the world, speaking of even those who are alive as dead, when He said to someone: ?Leave the dead, that is, laymen who are dead in worldly vanity, to bury the dead in body?" (Word 2.5). And such people are striving for "obedience", not so as to live in accordance with the will of God, but simply in order to live more comfortably: they dont have to think about anything for themselves, or read any serious Orthodox patristic books your spiritual father will decide everything for you. Whereas the holy fathers commanded us to obey only those spiritual fathers who teach in accordance with the teaching of the Church, and to run away from those teaching something not in agreement with the saints as from fire and certain destruction.

As regards the regeneration of Russia, who will dispute that it is necessary to regenerate her; but we must understand: how? If Russia fell as a result of apostasy from Orthodoxy, we must first strive to regenerate Orthodoxy, and, besides, not "everyday" Orthodoxy (like: golden cupolas on the churches, icons in the beautiful corner of the house, the general procession for holy water and into the Church at the Baptism of Christ; kitty-willows on Palm Sunday, cakes and eggs at Pascha and communion after quite a formal confession once a year or, at best, once in every fast period) because they had that kind of Orthodoxy in pre-revolutionary Russia, but it did not save her from revolution. We must return to patristic Orthodoxy, which presupposes constant inner sobriety, struggle with the passions, striving for the unceasing remembrance of God in prayer, frequent confession and communion, daily reading of the Holy Scriptures and the holy fathers while striving to carry out their instructions in reality and according to our powers, rejection of vain entertainments and much else. When people acquire a correct understanding of which the true Christian life is, then Russia can be regenerated in time, as in the first centuries of Christianity, when believers first learned simply the faith and how to preserve it, and then the Orthodox empire appeared.

As regards signs of the coming of the Antichrist? It is amazing how sensitive contemporary Orthodox are: everywhere they see "the number of the beast", "the seal of the Antichrist", "Judaeo-masonic conspiracies", "the claws of the beast"; they fight for the removal of credit cards and appeal that food with bar-codes should not be used. But for some reason they do not consider the apostasy from Orthodoxy of the overwhelming majority of contemporary hierarchs to be a sign of the speedy coming of the Antichrist, and if they do consider it to be one, they do not specially exert themselves to struggle against it. They will try to convince us that it is not worth buying something "sealed with the claws of the beast", but if you speak "too actively" against heretics and the co-travellers with heresy, these same "warriors" will ascribe you to the proud and unspiritual "fanatics". More than that: bar-codes dont you know, are much more dangerous! And struggling against them is much less dangerous for one's psychological comfort and life as a whole than struggling against heretics.

Believers who are particularly aware have one other occupation: with all their strength they "struggle with schism". In reply to words about the apostasy from the faith of the "official churches" they say: how can that be, after all, we have so many miracles, our icons are myrrh-streaming, relics appear, elders instruct the people!? But the Catholics and Protestants have masses of "miracles, and because of this they have not become Orthodox even to the present day.

Of course, it is much simpler to lay all decisions on the head of one or another spiritual father or "elder" and live calmly without thinking particularly about this. Time passes, and the general ability to think independently is lost. From personal experience of communion with patriarchal believers we can draw the conclusion that sometimes people who at the beginning were able to think clearly and who did ponder on various phenomena in the life of the MP, later, having read various patriarchal literature and having listened a lot to "spiritual fathers and elders", completely lost the gift of discerning truth from falsehood and hypocrisy from true piety. They will tell you about miracles, about somebody's visions and prophecies, about the veneration of the Royal Martyrs in the MP, about some pilgrimages to holy places, about "not judging" and about the necessity of praying for the hierarchs who are sinning against the faith, "that they correct themselves", and the absolute impossibility of separating from them, since this would be a "schism"

It is particularly terrible that all aspects of the life of believers are being covered with lies. Thus stories about "visions of the saints", which are in fact of a clearly demonic character, are taken completely seriously. As an example, let us take a publication in the newspaper Rus? Pravoslavnaya, which is read and taken seriously by many zealots and warriors for Orthodoxy in the MP, In issue no. 1 for the year 2000, under the heading "Russia's heavenly host", there is a lengthy account by a certain "servant of God Nina" of the Royal Martyrs? appearances to her in the course of her whole life. First, the authenticity of the account arouses certain doubts, insofar as it was even handed in to the newspaper through a third party a certain S.G. Trubitsyn. But let us assume that all the described events really took place. What are we talking about here? At the age of 6 years Nina was healed of an incurable disease by the "Royal Martyrs" appearing to her. At this time she was told by those who appeared to her: "When you grow up, tell people directly: let them not search for our remains, they dont exist!" The second time they appeared to her in 1972, when she was studying in the 8 th class, during a lesson in school: "His Majesty came up to us and blessed us all. And he said to me: ?You will live to my glorification. Write down all that you have seen.? The Empress Alexandra said to his Majesty: ?You know, you are not yet glorified, and yet you are already giving blessings" (?! T.S. ). And he turned to her, smiled and said: ?Not you, but we! We are all blessing together!?" Further on, Nina's account continues: "Now I already have five children, and we live in Moscow. In recent years I have several times seen Tsar Nicholas in my sleep. Once his Majesty said: they dont believe you, but soon they will believe.? He repeated this several times and pointed to a calendar on the wall, where he was represented together with the whole Family, and said: ?Hang it in the holy corner and pray!?" Another time he said to her: tell the priests that they should paint icons and that there should be prayer. Through these icons I will obtain miraculous aid, I have power to help many? And I will receive power to help the whole people when I am glorified on earth! And then tell them that Russia will flourish for a short time!?" From this it turns out that those who appeared do not consider the glorification of the Royal Martyrs that took place in 1981 to be a true glorification. Further on, he threatens Petersburg and Russia as a whole with all kinds of woes if they bury and venerate false relics, and exhorts: "Tell everyone that if we glorify his Majesty, he will arrange everything! And there will be no war!? Write it down and pass it on to the clergy? Amidst the clergy there some who are not real, they are stooges, liars? They will hide much of what I have said from the people. And others will believe and help you." Here we see the patriarchal myth that is now widespread that immediately the Tsar is glorified, immediately "everything will be alright". Not a word is said about the preservation of Orthodoxy; it is probably presupposed that the MP, notwithstanding the presence of a certain number of "lying priests", is irreproachable as a Church. Nothing is said about the hierarchs. The "tsar" appeared to Nina for the last time in broad daylight last winter in the Danilov monastery and reproached her for saying nothing about his appearances. He blessed her like a priest, and this time he appeared to her at the beginning in secular attire, but a few minutes later in priestly vestments. "He began to disappear before our eyes, as if he was going up, until he dissolved in the air?"

If all this is not just madness or some church hooligan's forgery, then we have before us clearly demonic activity. It is noteworthy that the woman more than once even had doubts whether the person who appeared to her was really who he said he was. She probably never read what the holy fathers say about all visions and appearances, and about the truly Christian attitude to them.

But the most terrible thing is that in the newspaper this "appearance" is taken for completely genuine and that it will probably be seen in the same light by the majority of readers. If we remember the false relics of St. Alexander of Svir, which in their time were ardently defended by the same Rus? Pravoslavnaya, and a mass of for-some-unknown-reason myrrh-streaming icons and other contemporary patriarchal "miracles", the conclusion has to be drawn that we are dealing here with demonic deception not just of individual heretic-hierarchs and priests, but also of masses of believers in the MP. Before our eyes there is being fulfilled the Apostle Paul's terrible prophecy about "the influence of error" sent to those who did not believe the truth of the Orthodox teaching on the faith as it was taught to us by the holy Fathers.

Even those who by the mercy of God are in the true Church of Christ should fear lest, by a mindless justification of the lost members of the official churches, out of a falsely understood "love for our neighbours", they draw upon themselves the wrath of God and that same influence of error which is inevitably found in all those who "had pleasure in unrighteousness" (II Thessalonians 2.11-12). For the truth is not contained in our musings and cogitations, but in the patristic teaching that is recognised by the whole Church. But if we, so as "not to frighten" the fainthearted, begin, out of a desire to please this world, to distort, soften or keep quiet about this teaching and in this form preach it to people, then we shall undoubtedly be condemned with this world, and our pseudo-Orthodoxy will not help us.

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9. "This is an hard saying: who can hear it?

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  1. "This is an hard saying: who can hear it?

To whom must we address our preaching of Orthodoxy first of all? I think: to those people who have not yet identified it with the MP. In recent years the MP has already been turned, in the eyes of many right-thinking people who do not wear rose-tinted glasses, into such an odious organisation that although they yearn in soul for the faith, the MP is not attractive to them and is not perceived by them as the Church. Many, having been in it for a while and seen what is happening there, have stopped going there. Moreover, a significant part of those who go to the patriarchal churches from time to time see the MP, not as a means of the salvation of the soul and the pillar and ground of the Truth , but rather as a state organisation that offers "ritual services" to the population: baptisms, weddings, blessings of houses, burials for the corresponding sum of money. People need the Church, but they don not see it or find it. And the duty of the Orthodox is to show people that Church which will truly speak not from this world and not for this world; which will not say one thing and do something else; which will obey the holy fathers and care for the preservation in the first place of Right Faith, and not of something else; which will deal first of all, not in the provision of "ritual services", but in the guiding of her children onto the path of eternal salvation.

As for those who have already been strongly sucked into the depths of the MP, and who have become more or less her "patriots", one must recognise that they have already been basically presented to the will of God. Insofar as the influence of error is allowed by God, it is impossible by human efforts to convert such deceived people to the truth, if the Lord Himself will not enlighten their darkened minds. If they become aware of the destructiveness of remaining in World Orthodoxy and come to the Church fine, but there is no sense in addressing the main part of our preaching to them, insofar s the "official churches?" "brain-washing" has now been placed on an industrial scale, right to the distortion of the lives of the saints and the patristic writings, and strengthened by a mass of false miracles.

We live in a time of war for the Orthodox Church. And the criteria for a time of war are always harder than for a time of peace. We have to draw into the ranks first of all those who can be warriors , we must teach the believers to be warriors for the Church of Christ that is, be useful in an active way for the Church, capable of recognising her teaching and putting it into practice, and not simply seeking external adornment and a peacefully ritual life, occupying the role of a passive observer, of a sheep who always goes behind the leader of the flock and is not able to make a step on his own.

In our time there are few pastors, and the flock must learn to do without them in case of necessity. So as to be warriors and soldiers of True Orthodoxy, which is now surrounded on all sides by the hostile sea of the world, the Orthodox must learn independently to think, to pray and to organise services and communal life, and not simply take part in enterprises already organised by someone, basically living with normal secular interests and always expecting instructions on everything "from the bosses". Let there be fewer believers than one would like, but they must be able to stand for their faith and the Church.

" Desire not a multitude of unprofitable children? (Sirach 16.1), says St. John Chrysostom, Such people give more occasion for blasphemy against God than if they were not Christians. What need have I of a multitude? Only more food for the fire? Everyone can see the same in war: it is better to have ten experienced and brave men that thousands of inexperienced ones: the latter do nothing and hinder those that do something?. Let us not strive merely that there should be many, but rather that they should excel in virtue. When the latter aim is attained, the first will be also." (Homilies on the Acts of the Apostles, 24:3-4).

Often an Orthodox community collapses because the priest who spiritually fed them moves somewhere or simply runs away; it also happens that the priest serving in the community is often away, and then all Divine services cease. People wander off in different directions or sit at home instead of trying by their efforts to support at any rate some kind of services. No small part in this situation is played by priests who insinuate to their flock that serving according to a "priestless" rite is "uncanonical" and even "invalid". Such words are comprehensible when they come from the mouths of clergy of the "official churches" they have to keep their flock in a condition of blind obedience and not allow competition in the market of "ritual services". But it would be good never to hear such insinuations from priests of the True Church, who must care, not for their own authority, but for their flock and its salvation?

But if you really want to have a community and Church life, begin now , yourselves, as you can, even if there are some mistakes in the Typicon, the reading and the chanting (but, of course, one must strive to avoid such mistakes in accordance with one's strength and understanding). The Lord, seeing your ardour and desire, will send people who will teach you how to serve correctly, and with time with also send His pastor. But if you sit crossing your arms and waiting until a well-ordered church life "falls from heaven", it may be that you will waste your whole life in this way while boasting that "we are suffering deprivations and sorrows for the sake of the True Church!" Are not stories of departures of priests and the collapse of communities as a result the fulfilment of the words of the Lord: "For he that hath, to him shall be given; and he that hath not, from him shall be taken away even that which he hath" (Mark 4.25) Not having a correct idea of Church life, the community was held together, not by its inner links, the common interests and strivings of the parishioners and their love for the Divine services, but by an external attachment to a concrete priest -and, as a result, remained with nothing. There are, by contrast, examples of communities that have remained without a pastor but which have continued, in spite of all obstacles and trials, to keep together and to carry out Divine services and in time the Lord sends them good pastors, nor are they "hirelings that care not for the sheep" (John 10.11-12).

Those who passively wait for "manna from heaven" are threatened with that about which St. Isaac the Syrian wrote: "The beginning of the darkening of the mind (when its signs begin to appear in the soul) can be discerned first of all in laziness with regard to the service of God and prayer. For if the soul does not first fall away from prayer, there is no other way he can be deceived in soul; but when he is deprived of God's help, he easily falls into the hands of his enemies. And also, immediately the soul becomes careless with regard to the works of virtue, he is unfailingly drawn to their opposite."

Often, too, believers of the "official church", coming to some kind of consciousness of the destructiveness of remaining in it, do not hurry to leave it either because there are no parishes of the True Church in the vicinity, or because life in these parishes is "not organised" there is no church or permanent batyushka, etc, while they themselves are not able to organise anything, to get together and serve. Moreover, they do not think it necessary. But then we have to ask ourselves the penetrating question: do we want to be in the Orthodox Church, or do we want a peaceful, well-organised life with people whom we find pleasant? If we have a consciousness that the MP and those churches similar to it are not the Church, why stay in it? It is better to leave and go, at least temporarily, nowhere , than remain in communion of prayer with heretics and in the red church subject our souls to dangerous spiritual experiments. It is better to sit at home for a while and serve oneself somehow (be it only one Vespers or the Hours), look around, have a bit of a think and work out where to go next, what to do, on what to orient oneself. To sit and wait for someone to "make" the True Church" and present it to us at home seems at first glance a more peaceful course, but who can say whether the Lord will suffer us for long and lengthen the days of our life? What if we have to end our life in communion with heretics, and then "as I find you, so will I judge you".

" In all ages the true zealots for the faith have struggled with heretics, paying attention neither to their lofty rank, nor to the secular authorities, nor to their fewness of numbers or external "insignificance"; the truly pious believers always gathered together and prayed, whether with a priest or not (in the ancient monasteries there was often no permanent priest, and all the services were carried out without them; the priest was invited only to serve the Liturgy); the holy fathers always called all the believers to spiritual sobriety and renunciation of worldly interests and attachments, to the narrow path of prayer, spiritual exploits and struggle and we absolutely must follow this path if we really want to be saved.

St. John of the Ladder gives all those who wish to live in a Christian manner this advice: "Do not wait for world-loving souls, because the thief comes unexpectedly. In trying to save the careless and indolent along with themselves, many perish with them, because in course of time the fire goes out. As soon as the flame is burning within you, run; for you do not know when it will go out and leave you in darkness." (Ladder, 3.4). This can be understood in the sense that it is dangerous to wait when this or that Christian understands the destructiveness of ecumenism, of modernism, of "everyday" Orthodoxy, of lukewarmness and of the blind "obedience" to the hierarchs now in power, and not to the holy fathers. While waiting for the conversion of such people, and hesitating to break communion with members of organisations that have deviated into heresy, we ourselves risk being condemned with them not only because we checked the flame of the true and uncompromising confession of the faith and preferred to it the dying embers of useless "humanism", but also because we gave to those seeking the truth, instead of patristic Orthodoxy, a spoiled and lukewarm humanistic Christianity oriented towards this world, which so fears to "offend" or "condemn" anyone that in the end it offends and condemns God Himself and His Church.

"I have not come, says the Lord, to send peace on earth? (Matthew 10.34),but battle and a sword, so as to separate those who love God from those who love the world, the material from the immaterial, the carnal from the spiritual, those who love glory from the wise in humility. For strife and separation delight the Lord when they spring from love for Himself." (Ladder 3.15).

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Post by Jakub »

A long post but you project some interestings thoughts which need a little time shall I say, to consume.

A new quote I like : " The true Christian is a warrior making his way through the regiments of the invisible enemy to his heavenly homeland".

St. Herman of Alaska

Pokoj,
james

Justin Kissel

Post by Justin Kissel »

I grow to understand more every day why those outside the Church--and even those inside the Church--look at traditionalists and say that they see lovers of division, strife, and judgmentalism.

Someone recently asked me why we paid lip service to be "unified with one voice and one faith" when, in reality, Orthodoxy was fragmented into various small groups fighting each other. I said that we weren't divided... ... and then I thought about it and realised that we in fact are. At least world Orthodoxy can claim some type of shallow, almost-Anglicanized (ie. "let's ignore our differences no matter how important"), cohesiveness; we traditionalists do not even have this false cohesiveness though (not that we'd want it). I've seen the articles in the Antiochian Word (and other publications) calling traditionalists protestants and lovers of strife and so forth, and of course they are wrong (I think Archbishop Chrysostomos of Etna has done a good job in answering them). But how can we expect them to see otherwise? "We have a proper ecclesiology, that's how they should see otherwise" someone answers. WHO!? If traditionalists have a half dozen different ecclesiological divisions (the moderate cyprianites, the moderate ROCORites, the super-correct ROCORites, the ROCORites in favor of quick reunion with the MP, the ROAC, the ROCiE, etc. etc.), then how can we say so smugly "you're wrong, and we have the right belief"? Where is the power of God, where is the truth? Where are the people becoming saints? Someone tell me.

Better yet, since I'm already a traditionalist and very secure in my beliefs and will remain in ROCOR, someone explain it to those outside the Church, and those in world Orthodoxy, who "admire our lifestyle, but are befuddled by our beliefs" (to paraphrase Gregory the Theologian). Let's talk to them for a second, rather than telling them how graceless or near-graceless or heretical or near-heretical they are. We quote Mark of Ephesus, Theodore the Studite, etc., but then these saints had things together. They were saints! That we can compare our current situation--as though we have the same discernment as they, as though we have the same authority to speak as they--it is simply amazing. Show me a learned, praying Father: show me a saint, then let him speak, and we will listen. Until then, all we will likely hear is noise. Controlled chaos, perhaps, but in the end it's just noise to most people; and on the last day God may ask us "by your own lips you said that they were damned, that they were heretics and outside the Church, why then did you put so little effort in bringing them back to the Church? Did you think that continually beating them over the head with anathema's and patristic quotes by rigorists would do that?" :(

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Post by Methodius »

Remember anathemas are declared out of love. To tell someone that they are sinning is a loving them to help get them on the straight and narrow path.

Its not the same as the ecumenical love that we are used to in western society.

Justin Kissel

Post by Justin Kissel »

That's a cop out. What if telling someone that they have been anathematized will only cause more harm? Will you continually keep pounding them over the head with it, claiming that it is "out of love," instead of admitting that, while they are indeed under anathema, they may respond better to a different attempt to reach them. In other words, even if we agree that their is a sickness, surely it must be admitted that not everyone responds to medicines in the same way. For some, an anathema would bring them to their senses. For others, it may only drive them into defensive senselessness, forcing them further and further away from the truth. And to be quite honest, you aren't a doctor, and you've had little experience with the medicine yourself, so what are you doing trying to diagnose other people, as though you can discern what therapy they need? What am I doing trying to do the same thing? St. John Chrysostom was so very wise and helpful in his homily on anathematizing others. The saints cry and wail, sometimes for days and weeks, when they are forced by the grace of God to speak out against someone for the protection of the Church.

How many of us have ever cried as we threw our flaming hammer of judgment down on another person? There is none good, no, not one.

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