Poll - Are the pious.....

[GOCPriestMark]

P.S. The fact that none of the moderators have stepped in is also very telling.......

Everyone knows it takes two to fight. I was not made a moderator except for the clergy forum, but my over-all impression of this discourse is that insults have been made on both sides. I am sure that if both of you will ask your spiritual fathers how to reply and in what spirit to receive replies, you will both be much enlightened, more at peace and hopefully more careful how and what you post.

[尼古拉前执事]

I would agree with Father Mark, most likely neither of you two meant to or thought you came off as being argumentative or insulting, but each of you apparently, to the other person you did.

As for why the moderators did not reply, well as I said in another post, Ioannis and I were out of town from Thursday through yesterday and have not had a chance to read every single post from the weekend.

Father Siluan has a very busy parish and is rarely able to get online and read all of the posts on the weekends, so that is the "very telling" reasons why no one has stopped in to stop the argument this weekend.

To everyone: Feel free to IM all of the adminstrative/moderation team if you feel a situation needs our immediate attention. That way, when we do get a chance to get online, one of us will be able to get to your concern in a reasonable amount of time.

[Myrrh]

Dear Myrrh:
For someone who refuses to reveal himself, you certainly take much upon yourself. I do not know who you are, which church you call home or even if you are a young or old person. Yet you have taken it upon yourself to be my judge and jury. It would be interesting to learn why you feel you must appoint yourself as my judge.

I was replying to your judgement of a tradition you know nothing about and your judgement of the spiritual state of people you know nothing about. It was general criticism.

I have been a member of this forum since October of 2002 and I have always been very open about who and what I am, where I park my hat and the nature of my Orthodoxy. Yet despite all this you feel it necessary to not only attack me and my character, but to also belittle me on this list. Again I would like to know why.

Milla

I really don't know how to explain this anymore, I thought my first post would set you thinking about what you were saying, but you launched into further attacks on the integrity of people and tradition YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT and I'm sorry that's in capitals, but you continue to insult these people because you don't understand them, and instead of being adult and finding out you presume to judge them from your own view of what 'true' spirituality is. I have not said anything about you more than you yourself have posted of your views. How could I? I don't know anything more about you than what you've posted.

Please try to see how insulting you're being to centuries of Orthodox tradition let alone the presumptions you've made about their piety.

Anyway, I'm away again for a while, will try and get back to this when I find an internet cafe.

Did you read the link I posted?

http://www.incommunion.org/articles/old ... -your-body

P.S. The fact that none of the moderators have stepped in is also very telling...

Of what? That you expect the moderators to support your attack on Orthodox traditions? That's interesting.

Myrrh

[Liudmilla]

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/guidech2.pdf

A portion only but the rest is at the above link...........

While standing in worship, the Sign of the Cross should normally be made at the end of each petition chanted by the Deacon or Priest, accompanied by a slight bow. (In some monasteries, where silence is assiduously maintained, this practice does not hold, since movement can be distracting.)

We make the Sign of the Cross:

1. When the Name of God, Christ, or the Trinity is mentioned.
2. When the Theotokos or any Saint’s name is mentioned. 46 “News of Science,” Reader’s Digest, October 1989, p. 149. Orthodox Life 59
3. When we say the Trisagion (“Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal, have mercy on us”), “Glory to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, both now and ever, and unto the ages of ages,” the Lord’s Prayer (“Our Father...”), and any other similar prayers.
4. At the end of each petition in a litany, as we noted above.
5. Whenever the Deacon or Priest says, “Let us beseech the Lord.”
6. Whenever the curtain to the Altar is opened or closed.
7. At any time that you wish to pray for or remember any person during the course of the Service (for instance, when the Deacon or Priest commemorates the Bishop or the sick or those traveling.

There are also circumstances when we do not normally make the Sign of the Cross. Two such instances are:

1. When a Priest or Bishop blesses with his hand. We should, properly, simply bow slightly in acknowledgment of this blessing. This is also true when one approaches a Priest or Bishop for a blessing. He should not cross himself, but receive the blessing of the clergyman in question.
2. During the reading of the Six Psalms during Matins (see below).

There are also times during the Services, as we have noted, when the Faithful make a bow (bowing slightly or touching the ground with the right hand) or a prostration (metanoia in Greek, or poklon in russian), crossing ourselves, falling to the knees, and bending the head down to the ground. We bow:

1. When we venerate an Icon, especially on Saturday or Sunday, when we are not to make prostrations.

1. At the beginning of any Service and each time that the Reader says, “O come, let us worship....”
2. At several specific times during the Liturgy (see below).
3. When the Deacon, Priest, or Bishop censes in our direction.
4. When the Priest or Bishop makes an entrance into the Altar during Vespers or Liturgy.[/b]
   6. Towards the Bishop, if present in the Church, when he is commemorated during the petitions.

We make prostrations:

1. As described above, when entering the Church and venerating the central Icon, as long as we are outside Paschaltide and it is not a Sunday. Some people only bow in this instance. This, too, is proper.
2. When anyone enters the Altar outside Paschaltide and on days other than Sunday, even if he is only going in to clean. After prostrating or bowing, a Bishop, Priest, or Deacon kisses the Holy Table. (No one else should, incidentally, ever touch the Holy Table under any circumstances.)
3. At certain points in the Divine Liturgy during the week, outside Paschaltide.[/b]

At the end of any Service, the Priest will come out, facing us, and commemorate a list of various Saints. We should cross ourselves at each name mentioned. This may seem artificial and repetitive at first, but if we work through our initial resistance, this corporate action of the believers with the Priest facing one another is really quite beautiful and very beneficial for the community. Of course, this is only possible if we strive to maintain an attitude of humble reverence. All of these acts of piety and attempts to participate in the Services are empty and vain if they are done with the slightest hint of pride or showiness. This is easily avoided when we focus all of our concentration on the Altar and the prayers, participating in the Service from a sense of awe and gratitude for God’s infinite mercy. This attitude will not come easily or quickly. There will be days when we simply have other things on our mind. What we must remember is that nothing which seems important in our daily lives and which distracts us from worship will be of any consequence fifty or a hundred years from now. Our prayers, on the other hand, are heard eternally.

[Liudmilla]

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/guidech2.pdf

Another important portion............

During the most solemn parts of this Service, we are called upon to participate in the following ways:

1. At the time of the Great Entrance, we should bow slightly as the Gifts are brought out from the Altar. We should never bow down so far, during liturgical entrances, that we do not see what is happening. Entrances and processions in the Church call our attention to something (the Gospel, the Offerings for theEucharist, an Icon, etc.) and we should not be looking at the floor when they take place. Otherwise, they lose their meaning. When the Priest passes we may gently touch or kiss the edge of his Phelonion. We should stand upright just before the Priest enters the Beautiful Gates.
2. When the Priest says, “Take, eat...,” we should make a bow and then stand upright. The modern practice of kneeling at this point is rooted in the incorrect idea that these words constitute the “consecration” of the Eucharistic Elements. The Orthodox Church has never held to that understanding.
3. When the Priest says, “Take, drink...,” we once again make a slight bow and then stand upright.
4. When the Priest says, “Thine Own of Thine Own...,” we bow (or make a prostration, on days when this is permitted) and remain bowed down (or prostrate) until the Priest says: “Especially for our most holy....” It is during this time that the Priestreads the prayers of “consecration” inside the Altar.
5. After the “Our Father...,” when the Priest exclaims, “Holy Things are for the Holy,” we bow (or make a prostration, on days when this is permitted) and then remain bowed down (or prostrate) until the choir finishes “One is Holy....”
6. When the Deacon or Priest presents the Chalice and chants, “With fear of God...,” we either bow or make a quick prostration (when allowed), and then stand upright again.

[spiridon]

Prostrations are made at all times and at prayers that are often different than for other Orthodox accustomed to the diminution of prostrations made by and after the Patriarch Nikon. A study needs to be made to determine exactly what the canons of the Church meant when they prohibited prayer "on bended knees" at certain times. For example, the service books used in the Old Rite, and used by all Russian Orthodox prior to the reforms of Patriarch Nikon, specifically direct prostrations at the Kissing of the Gospel at Sunday Matins, or at It is truly Meet... at the end of Liturgy, and even at the end of Shine, Shine, New Jerusalem... all during the Paschal season. While one might argue the propriety of making these prostrations, it must be understood the service books directing these prostrations are hundreds of years old and pre-date the schism in the Russian Church by many decades, if not centuries. Thus, these prostrations are not "Old Believer oddities" but the semi-ancient if not ancient practice of the Russian Orthodox Church.

[Liudmilla]

On prostrations, and what kind are to be done during the Liturgy.

http://www.stjohndc.org/russian/english.htm

According to the rules of the Holy Orthodox Church, full prostrations (head to the ground) - symbolizing extreme humility before God - are not done on Sundays, for on those days we celebrate a little Pascha. On the day of His Glorious Resurrection from the dead, Christ the Savior reconciled us to God.

Full prostrations are, however, called for during Liturgies served on weekdays. The first full prostration in the Liturgy is done after the Creed, as the priest says "Let us give thanks unto the Lord!" and the choir responds by singing "It is meet and right to worship the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit…" At that point the priest reads a prayer in which he thanks the Lord for bringing us from non-being into being, for once again restoring those who had fallen away from Him. He thanks the Lord for all of His blessings, both those we know of and those unknown to us, and for the peaceful sacrifice ("a mercy of peace"), that we are about to offer. Thanks to this prayer of thanksgiving, the entire impending church service is known as the "Eucharist," from the Greek word meaning "thanksgiving." All of the faithful perform the first full prostration at this point as a sign of their thanks to God for their entire lives.

Everyone makes a second full prostration at the singing of "To Thee we sing…," i.e.. during the Mystery of the changing of the Holy Gifts, at the priest's words "changing them by Thy Holy Spirit. Amen. Amen. Amen!"

Christ Himself is present in the Holy Gifts. Everyone makes a third full prostration to the Mother of God at the words "Especially for our Most holy, Most pure, Most-blessed, Most-blessed Lady Theotokos and Ever virgin Mary." At this time, the Choir sings "It is truly meet to bless thee, the Theotokos…" We revere the Mother of God as "more honorable than the Cherubim and beyond compare more glorious than the Seraphim." By her was the Incarnation of God accomplished. She gave birth to God our Savior.

The ustav calls for a fourth full prostration at the singing of the "Our Father," the Lord's Prayer, for us is of absolutely unique importance. It is the greatest of prayers, for it was given to us by the Lord Himself (see Matthew 6: 9-13). As we pronounce the words "give us this day our daily bread," let us think not only of ordinary bread, but about the eucharistic Bread of which many soon are to partake. Let us pray that the Lord might give us "this day" His divine Bread, unto the healing of soul and body.

We make the fifth full prostration when the Holy Gifts are brought out for Communion of the laity, as the priest or deacon says "With fear of God, with faith and love draw nigh!" According to the Orthodox Faith, in the Mystery of the Eucharist bread and wine changes into the Body and Blood of Christ. We bow down before the Holy Gifts as before Christ Himself, for He is mystically present in them.

The sixth full prostration is done at the end of the Liturgy, after the singing of "We have seen the True Light…" At this point, the priest secretly prays: "Be Thou exalted above the heavens, O God, and Thy glory above all the earth!" In the Liturgy, this final appearance of the Holy Gifts to the people, and their subsequent transfer deep into the Altar, to the Table of Prothesis, depicts the Ascension of Jesus Christ into Heaven. The Gospel states that while Christ was ascending, the Apostles bowed down before Him (Luke 24: 52); likewise, at the final appearance of the Holy Gifts we make a full prostration. Those who have communed do not make this last prostration, for they not only observe and contemplate on Christ as the other faithful do, but they also have Him within themselves!