Old Believers

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Anastasios
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Post by Anastasios »

Old Beleiverism was a move away from liturgical unity, as had been occuring in the Orthodox Church for the past 1500 years as more and more local usages died out and were replaced with new ones--yes, new ones, as the Neo-Sabbaitic synthesis was an amalgamation of monastic and cathedral rites--these folks jumped ship at a time when Orthodox were moving closer together. The Old Calendarists, on the other hand, are those who resisted a change away from Orthodox unity (unity not being limited solely to the present time).

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Post by drewmeister2 »

anastasios wrote:

Old Beleiverism was a move away from liturgical unity, as had been occuring in the Orthodox Church for the past 1500 years as more and more local usages died out and were replaced with new ones--yes, new ones, as the Neo-Sabbaitic synthesis was an amalgamation of monastic and cathedral rites--these folks jumped ship at a time when Orthodox were moving closer together. The Old Calendarists, on the other hand, are those who resisted a change away from Orthodox unity (unity not being limited solely to the present time).

Anastasios

Thanks, that makes sense :). Although I will say, it would be cool to go to the ROCOR Old Believer parish in PA someday to experience what it used to be like in Russia centuries ago.

Edward
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Post by Edward »

"Old Beleiverism was a move away from liturgical unity, as had been occuring in the Orthodox Church for the past 1500 years as more and more local usages died out and were replaced with new ones--yes, new ones, as the Neo-Sabbaitic synthesis was an amalgamation of monastic and cathedral rites--these folks jumped ship at a time when Orthodox were moving closer together. The Old Calendarists, on the other hand, are those who resisted a change away from Orthodox unity (unity not being limited solely to the present time)."

You are using the "Nikonian argument" but fail to see things from their perspective. During the reign of Tsar Ivan IV, there was the Stoglav (Hundred Chapters) Council, which addressed the issue of the liturgical differences between the Greek and Russian Churches. At that council, it was decreed that the Russian usuage was the same as had been taught to them by their Greek baptizers. The Old Believers also uphold the memory of Saint Maximus the Greek, who affirmed this. The OB explanation for the liturgical and textual differences lie in the fact that the Turks forbade the Greeks to publish books, so the Church had all their liturgical books printed in Venice and Paris by Jesuits. Similar to the argument for using the Septuagint Greek OT as opposed to the Hebrew Massoretic, the OB maintain that their Slavonic texts are more authentic because they are not tamped with by Jesuits.

The irony of all this is that the further development of the Russian practice westernized it to such a degree that the Old Rite, to me, seems closer to the traditional Greek usuage than the current Russian practice. Interestingly enough, there was a book in Russian writen about the history of Slavonic translations which pointed out that in the late 19th century the Holy Synod did make some textual changes, often restoring Pre-Nikonian texts.

I think we cannot ignore the similarities between the Old Believers and the Old Calendarists. On the positive side, there is great love for the faith and liturgical worship. Their faithful are much better trained in apologetics than the rest of us. One of the distinctive characteristics about the OBs before the Revolution was that there was a higher rate of literacy among them and thus they often had better skills in rhetoric than village priests of the official Russian Church.

In both cases, recent councils had affirmed their main cause of contingency with the official church. I noted the Stoglav council and its upholding of the Russian rites. Our Old Calendarist friends often site local councils and Patriarchal epistles and tomes concerning baptism and the Church Calendar. Secondly, in both cases the changes were done in a very unpastoral manner and enforced in a rather Papal manner. Thirdly, both groups experienced terrible persecution at the onset of their resistance to changes.

However, both groups have divided into manner small splinter groups that usually do not recognize one another. In the case of the OBs, it got to the point where there were priestless groups, sects that practiced flagulation, even groups that practices castration. There was one group that split off called the Molokhany (Moloko means milk in Russian), who believed that milk can be drunk during fasting times. Among the Old Calendarists, they are divided about grace in the official church. Furthermore, they argue when that grace was lost. Then there are divisions over the Old Man Trinity Icon and I am certain there are divisions caused by ego clashes.

As for the "official" Church, these problems persist. After the 17th century, the Russian Church became more and more Westernized. Peter the Great abolished the patriarchate in favor of a Holy Synod, based on the Swedish Lutheran Church. During Catherine the Great's reign, Western art and music crept into the Russian Church. In the seminaries, Summa Theologica became the standard textbook used. Furthermore, after the 17th century we see Chrismation eventually become the norm for accepting converts and in Ukraine, pouring became a form used for baptism.

I don't think it necessary to chronicle what happened in the "official" churches in the 20th century. However, despite all these problems, grace remained that saints sprang forth. In Russia, we have Saint Paisius Velichkovsky, the Optina Elders, Saint Ignatius Brianchaninov, Saint Theophan the Recluse, Saint Tikhon of Zadonsk, Saint Seraphim of Sarov, Saint Philaret of Moscow, all of whom lived in the 18th and 19th centuries.
In the Greek Church, we have saints such as Saint Nicholas Planas. I am currently reading "Precious Vessels of the Holy Spirit", which is about contemporary Greek Elders, many of whom lived through the calendar changes, others were born afterwards, but still led holy lives and became grace bearing elders.

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Post by drewmeister2 »

Edward wrote:

You are using the "Nikonian argument" but fail to see things from their perspective. During the reign of Tsar Ivan IV, there was the Stoglav (Hundred Chapters) Council, which addressed the issue of the liturgical differences between the Greek and Russian Churches. At that council, it was decreed that the Russian usuage was the same as had been taught to them by their Greek baptizers. The Old Believers also uphold the memory of Saint Maximus the Greek, who affirmed this. The OB explanation for the liturgical and textual differences lie in the fact that the Turks forbade the Greeks to publish books, so the Church had all their liturgical books printed in Venice and Paris by Jesuits. Similar to the argument for using the Septuagint Greek OT as opposed to the Hebrew Massoretic, the OB maintain that their Slavonic texts are more authentic because they are not tamped with by Jesuits.

The irony of all this is that the further development of the Russian practice westernized it to such a degree that the Old Rite, to me, seems closer to the traditional Greek usuage than the current Russian practice. Interestingly enough, there was a book in Russian writen about the history of Slavonic translations which pointed out that in the late 19th century the Holy Synod did make some textual changes, often restoring Pre-Nikonian texts.

I think we cannot ignore the similarities between the Old Believers and the Old Calendarists. On the positive side, there is great love for the faith and liturgical worship. Their faithful are much better trained in apologetics than the rest of us. One of the distinctive characteristics about the OBs before the Revolution was that there was a higher rate of literacy among them and thus they often had better skills in rhetoric than village priests of the official Russian Church.

In both cases, recent councils had affirmed their main cause of contingency with the official church. I noted the Stoglav council and its upholding of the Russian rites. Our Old Calendarist friends often site local councils and Patriarchal epistles and tomes concerning baptism and the Church Calendar. Secondly, in both cases the changes were done in a very unpastoral manner and enforced in a rather Papal manner. Thirdly, both groups experienced terrible persecution at the onset of their resistance to changes.

However, both groups have divided into manner small splinter groups that usually do not recognize one another. In the case of the OBs, it got to the point where there were priestless groups, sects that practiced flagulation, even groups that practices castration. There was one group that split off called the Molokhany (Moloko means milk in Russian), who believed that milk can be drunk during fasting times. Among the Old Calendarists, they are divided about grace in the official church. Furthermore, they argue when that grace was lost. Then there are divisions over the Old Man Trinity Icon and I am certain there are divisions caused by ego clashes.

As for the "official" Church, these problems persist. After the 17th century, the Russian Church became more and more Westernized. Peter the Great abolished the patriarchate in favor of a Holy Synod, based on the Swedish Lutheran Church. During Catherine the Great's reign, Western art and music crept into the Russian Church. In the seminaries, Summa Theologica became the standard textbook used. Furthermore, after the 17th century we see Chrismation eventually become the norm for accepting converts and in Ukraine, pouring became a form used for baptism.

I don't think it necessary to chronicle what happened in the "official" churches in the 20th century. However, despite all these problems, grace remained that saints sprang forth. In Russia, we have Saint Paisius Velichkovsky, the Optina Elders, Saint Ignatius Brianchaninov, Saint Theophan the Recluse, Saint Tikhon of Zadonsk, Saint Seraphim of Sarov, Saint Philaret of Moscow, all of whom lived in the 18th and 19th centuries.
In the Greek Church, we have saints such as Saint Nicholas Planas. I am currently reading "Precious Vessels of the Holy Spirit", which is about contemporary Greek Elders, many of whom lived through the calendar changes, others were born afterwards, but still led holy lives and became grace bearing elders.

Edward Henderson

Thanks. I see both sides of it now. But with what you are saying above, wouldn't that mean that the Greeks and Nikonian Russians have been wrong all this time, and that the OBs are the True Orthodox?

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Post by Edward »

"Thanks. I see both sides of it now. But with what you are saying above, wouldn't that mean that the Greeks and Nikonian Russians have been wrong all this time, and that the OBs are the True Orthodox?"

If you take the Greek Old Calendarist or ROAC or ROCIE ecclesiology to its logical conclusion, then the Old Believers are the only True Orthodox, thus they are (also) uncanonical by their own ecclesiology because they are not in communion with the Russian Orthodox Old Ritualists. Despite their condemnation of eccumenism and the New Calendarist, they still are crossing themselves differently and are using reformed liturgical books and rites, one at the hands of the Jesuits and the other at the hand of Patriarch Nikon. Secondly, they recognize the "official" Orthodox Churches up until the 20th, whereas the OBs would argue that these Churches fell away centuries ago.

I personally don't accept this, but I understand it.

We could even chronicle it: The Nikonian reforms weakening ecclesiastical unity among the Russian people as well as weakened the position of the Church in its relation with the state. These conditions made it possible for Peter the Great to abolish the Patriarchate, creating the Holy Synod and thus making the official Russian Church a government department. This allows for the scholastic invasion into Russian Orthodox theology and further Westernization under Catherine the Great. This infects other Orthodox Churches because Russia is the only "Orthodox" superpower. It must add that the nation with whom Russia fought the most wars was with the Ottoman Empire. Russia's goal was to conquer them, which would have brought all the traditional Orthodox Christian lands under them. They came close however the British and the French kept Russia from conquering Constantinople.

....Other Orthodox Churches are infected with the Russian Church's Westernized theology. There are those who resist, such as Saint Paisius Velichkovsky, the Optina Elders, and the Kolyvades Fathers. However, this does not sway the ecclesiastical authorities. It is obvious that this serves as one of many factors that create the conditions for the calendar change, sergianism, and ecumenism.

Perhaps had Patriarch Nikon left things alone, Church History would be very different today

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Post by 尼古拉前执事 »

Actually as I understand after the synod that decided it had the older rite, another synod met and found the opposite.

Some of the obvious issues in the Old Rite would be kneeling on Sundays, some of the misspelling that arose in service books etc.

That being said, the persecution as it took place was clearly wrong.

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