Appropriate Modest Clothing in Church

[joasia]

"There is another very ancient Icon, known as the “Icon of the Most-holy Theotokos, helper to women giving birth to children.” On that Icon, the Mother of God is depicted with head uncovered, her hair flowing down her shoulders, and her arms folded upon her breast. "

That's just horrific !! How could the bishop allow such an image in the church?? :ohvey: Definitely, sounds like a western influence. Maybe the person thought he would try his hand at painting like Da Vinci.

Her head should always be covered, the meaning of which is that she exemplifies humilty and total obedience to God. And yes, she is the icon of all women. We should pray to her to help us develop in humility and obedience.

In Christ,

Joanna

[Liudmilla]

Tessa Wrote:

Even though the Muslims don't have the truth they have
conservative values on these issues which has in turn kept other things
from contributing to the moral decay of their society. I think both men
and women who through immodesty (in dress, speech, dance, etc.) lure
others to fornication will be judged accordingly.

I think we are confusing Muslim outter displays as modesty and that is NOT what we are taught. I saw a documentary recently on PBS that showed what those modest women are forced to wear when they are at home or in private. The word modest does not come to mind.

Joanna wrote:

That's just horrific !! How could the bishop allow such an image in the church?? Definitely, sounds like a western influence. Maybe the person thought he would try his hand at painting like Da Vinci.

Her head should always be covered, the meaning of which is that she exemplifies humilty and total obedience to God. And yes, she is the icon of all women. We should pray to her to help us develop in humility and obedience.

What is so horrible? There is an icon in St Seraphim's Church in Sea Cliff, New York (women's side..next to the middle window...if anyone wants to go look) which also shows the Theotokos with uncovered head. She is shown praying to a crusifix of Christ. It is a simply beautiful icon. There is no suggestion of anything immodest or western or any other thought when you look at it. I know since I have stood next to it since I came to this parish, well over 40 years.

In this and in the case of veils and scarves.....we tend to impose our own sensibilities on others, rather than just looking to our selves and out failings.

I note that most of the commentary comes from young women, I would warn you guys of what we used to call the st. Xenia syndrome. I understand that we want to emulate the saints, but as mothers and wifes you have been given other responcibilities and in your zeal sometimes that is forgotten. It is quite possible to be modest and virtuous without resorting to the "little house on the Prairie" look. It says that you head need be covered..... hats work just as well, but sometimes in creating us God has presented a greater challenge as in my case and in Katya's. I am not against scarves but please be realistic okay? As to as... tessa wrote....heavy material....When you ladies become menoposal....look up this thread and tell me what you think then about heavy material on your heads...... again that challenge to our womanhood.

And those guys who are so intent on covering women head to toe....I note you generally like to lurk at the back of the church, I suggest that you move to the front where you can't see what your fellow sisters in Christ are wearing. You will be less troubled..

Milla

[Tessa]

I think we are confusing Muslim outter displays as modesty and that is NOT what we are taught. I saw a documentary recently on PBS that showed what those modest women are forced to wear when they are at home or in private. The word modest does not come to mind.

Well I never saw this on what was probably an ultra-liberal PBS documentary, as I was actually friends with SEVERAL pious Muslim families in Arizona with whom I ate dinner with IN THEIR HOUSES, before my spiritual coversion. The women always dressed nicely, elegantly, and modestly even in their homes with family when the hijjab was removed. No belly dance costumes, LOL :mrgreen:

In Christ,
Tessa

[CorpusChristi]

Joanna wrote "That's just horrific !! How could the bishop allow such an image in the church?? Definitely, sounds like a western influence. Maybe the person thought he would try his hand at painting like Da Vinci."

Come on now, lets not be judgemental...what you mean is the "protestants" might have come out with an icon of the Theotokos without a covering, as the muslims have too. But this has nothing to do with the west, remember there is more heresy in the east then the west , and there are horrible non believers in both east and West... in the Roman church the Mother of God is always written with a covering,either cloth or a crown... The west has been the breeding ground of many pius people and saints, besides it was Gods creation, and that creation you so proudly put down...shame shame shame, may God help you...
its just sad that both churchs ended up giving birth to such downfalls.
the roman church unfortunately was the breeding place of Prtotestants..
and islam came from the church of the east(Orthodox), with its back ground and main believers conveying in some of our ecumenical counicils, with there beliefs in Jesus,the Virgin Mary,The holy Prophets and,angels and saints, many people followed there more simple belief system and piety which was losing its place in the churchs of the east....
both church`s gave birth to two very destructive anals of heresy...
Besides if you continue going west without stopping you end up back in the East, and if you continue without stopping going east from the west you end up on the west again..same with north and south....who is right and who is wrong ,who is Holy and who is not? one thing I do know is that none of us will ever know the Truth outside of our own Hearts, only God knows the Truth and where it is WEST, EAST,NORTH ,SOUTH
or maybe a center point on earth, or in the Hearts of each of us...
ironically that is what the heretics of islam follow,who come from the east...........

[Tessa]

I think it was also St. John Maximovitch who spoke against the judging of Holy Icons-regardless of style, depictions, etc.

In Christ,
Tessa

[Kollyvas]

I guess St. Paul can stand in the back too. Do wish Fr. Leonid a Merry Christmas!
R
Joasia is rightly stating that the icon in question reflects a later period in Russian iconography which breaks with the "canon" of depicting the Panaghia Theotokos. Yes, I agree with her that Western forms should gradually be filtered out and we should rediscover what truly is our Eastern heritage and what we shared with the West when it was Orthodox and honour that...St. John prefered traditional Orthodox iconography, but made it a point to say that he prayed in front of both styles.

[joasia]

Christ is born! Glorify Him!

Basically what I was focused on and should have mentioned from the start is that the depiction of Theotokos from the time of her presentation to the Temple and the Annunciation was that with head covered. As I understand it, she was a child...3 and 12(approx). Now, someone explained to me that a maiden can be depicted with her head uncovered...but, I was always given the impression and reverence that the Theotokos was above all maidens, above all women, above all angels and above the Cherubim and Seraphim. Therefore, the depiction of the Theotokos should be made with the utmost respect and care of her position as the Holy Temple of God. She should not be portrayed as, say, a virgin martyr or saint, that can be painted with her head uncovered. The Theotokos is beyond that example.

The Byzantine icons depict the Theotokos, not only as a person, but as an expression of the Orthodox faith. And in that faith, is the teachings of her stature, which is beyond compare to any maiden of this world.

I have also been told that this icon has been a source of miracles and for that, I will not oppose. It's the first time I've heard of it and I would be so grateful for any further information.

Please forgive me for my insinuations.

In Christ,

Joanna