Roman Catholic Orthodox Dialogue even possible?

[AndyHolland]

"There is no other Church, save the ONE founded by Christ, the Orthdox Church" Amen.

"Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us"

Remember,

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

It is important to notice that the division is an act of God, and the declaration of good is an act of God, and the judgement is an act of God. Let God be God - let God arise and judge the World.

We don't have to judge: Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

and so when the Lord says,

Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

We leave those outside the Orthodox Church to the merciful judgment of Christ. That is what an anathema is.

But the meaning of the above also implies we should not be condescending towards those outside the Church, and throw what is Holy before swine. Yet Jesus visited the houses of Prostitutes, tax collectors and sinners. What then does it mean?

Does it mean we should judge? - no - by eliminating our judgment - replacing it with His - we are no longer casting pearls among swine, we are bringing the light of Christ that illumines all. God will separate the light from the darkness, we don't have to judge them nor do we have to condescend toward them, nor do we have to share Holy Communion with them - but if we are of the light - we are compelled to Love them!

yours in Christ Jesus,

andy

[Kollyvas]

Firstly, unless you're divinely illumined, you should have Patristic citations to back up your biblical excursis, and Holy Scripture is an icon which is INAPPROPRIATE TO USE AS A PROPAGANDA POSTER. Now, I have neither judged nor rejected the heterodox and unbelievers, but called them to the Banquet, the Love Feast, which is the Celebration of Holy Orthodoxy. I have repeatedly endorsed dialogue which embodies ORTHODOX WITNESS--there can be no other fellowship with error or council with infidelity, FOR WHAT PART HATH CHRIST WITH belial?! Likewise, the FATHERS AND CANONS AND HOLY SCRIPTURE BID US TO PREACH FATHER, SON, HOLY SPIRIT: by virtue of the charismatic seal of Chrismation, we are all called to witness ORTHODOXY. Nothing can be more loving than leading people to the Body of Christ, WHICH IS ONLY THE ORTHODOX CHURCH. The Body of Christ which is the only means by which one may be saved, for salvation is Christ. If there is another sufficient creed other than Orthodoxy, since you seemingly have a disdain for the concept of "ONE HOLY CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH," perhaps that creed is really the one you believe?! For me, I will have NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH--HOLY ORTHODOXY--AND HER "JUDGEMENTS" which are the voice of the Holy Spirit...BY WHICH THE HOLY SCRIPTURES TESTIFY, THE FATHERS SPOKE, AND THE HOLY CANONS WERE WRITTEN.
ORTHODOXIA I THANATOS!
Rostislav Mikhailovich Malleev-Pokrovsky

[AndyHolland]

What little I do know is that God is judge, not me. Pointing out Holy Scripture that is consistent with such a viewpoint and formed such a viewpoint is not a Propoganda poster. It is a witness of how certain matters of conscience were formed. If such thinking runs contrary to the Church Fathers, please illumine me as to where.

To love others, even our enemies, is the divine illumination and command of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. There is no other teacher or illuminator but God.

In point of fact, I agree with you whole heartedly about One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. I have no real stake in Roman Catholicism except to see its adherents brought back into One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church in a totally Orthodox context precisely as you stated above.

We are probably very much in agreement about these matters. However, what was stated is that Jesus Christ is the judge, He knows who is in His Church, and we need to acquire a Spirit of Peace in order to convert others (See St. Seraphim of Sarov]

yours in Christ Jesus,

Andy Holland
Somerset PA

[Kollyvas]

The reason we ground ourselves in the commentaries of the Holy Fathers is to be firm in what the Holy Spirit has provided us with Scripture. They commented on the Scriptures in Divine Illumination--is your interpretation as valid then?! Secondly, using them to try and reinforce an ideological point is indeed propaganda--you might as well drape them in the flag of your choice...Lastly, there is no LOVE WITHOUT TRUTH WHICH THE FATHERS, SCRIPTURES, CANONS HAVE SPOKEN IN CHRIST JESUS BY THE FATHER THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT. The heterodox lack that...That is the Orthodox Faith. I refer you to +Metropolitan Hierotheos' work, THE MIND OF THE ORTHODOX CHURCH. See also Fr. Georges Florovsky.
R

[AndyHolland]

Dear Kollyvas,

Glory to Jesus Christ!

There is no better reading - that pierces my own conscience deeply and speaks to all these matters directly than reading of the Holy Father St. Jude in his Epistle in Holy Scripture.

From a website - with Holy Fear we should consider:

http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv- ... te=5375671

If I claim that I am too ignorant to judge, trust me, that is not incorrect. I have indeed consulted the Fathers on these matters, paying particular attention to St. John Chrysostem's teaching on Matthew 7 quoted earlier. There is a deviation in the interpretation of casting pearls among swine perhaps. (See Homilies on the Gospel of St. Matthew).

What the heterodox lack I do not know, all I know is that I lack a great deal. Again, claiming ignorance is consistent with the teaching of St. Maximos the confessor who spoke of how Christians understand themselves to be truly ignorant (See the Centuries on Love).

As Orthodox as part of prayer of the Psalms I pray "I will not know a wicked person" and take that very seriously. It seems very consistent with all other Scripture cited and the Epistle of St. Jude that urges great care and caution - because the double edged sword cuts both ways.

Comparing Scripture to Scripture is comparing Spiritual to Spiritual as St. Paul taught. Comparing Fathers to Scripture is comparing Spiritual to Spiritual as St. Paul taught.

If I may presume to reach for a speck in your eye however, you should not write of what I disdain, know or do not know nor should you dare to state I am using Holy Scripture as Propoganda. You do not know my heart. St. John Chrysostem taught it is easier to raise the dead than to know ones heart - and unless you have been walking on water lately, you should read St. Jude in Holy Fear. If St. Michael does not judge the devil, then neither should I seek to judge anyone or their motives.

yours in Christ Jesus,

Andy Holland
Somerset PA

[Kollyvas]

When we come forward with ideological views to confirm our preconceived notions which aren't in accord with Orthodoxy, you be the judge...If, indeed, you are consulting Fathers you should be putting them forward firstly and not your own presentation. You ARE NOT ILLUMINED I would presume and hence LACK THE PATRISTIC MIND or even living experience of the PATRISTIC CONSENSUS. Lastly, we know what the heterodox lack--THE CHURCH--which with even fragments of Truth that some have more or less of, the context for right belief and understanding is utterly absent. It's like finding an incomplete cd-rom written in a computer language you are unfamiliar with and not having the right hardware to run it and trying to reverse engineer hardware and software to see what it says. They have no part with the Church, which they are outside.
R

[Kollyvas]

Since you are unsure of the boundaries of Truth and error, save for a feeling, please reference the below site as a start for you to begin understanding why heretics and unbelievers are not Orthodox, what impact that has and where differences lie....
R

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/c.parks/florovsky.html