The Remnant Mentality - Now Orthodox are embracing?

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ioannis
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Post by ioannis »

I fall back on the "passion" aspect. That we were all created in the image of God and all are subject to the same passions.

Chrysostomos,

This seems to me to be an attempt to try and "explain away" Genuine Orthodox Christians, who believe they are a remnant, as victims of their own passions.

But in order for you to say this, then you will also have to call the Holy Fathers, who wrote many times that they were the last remnant, sinners for saying this, which is just absolutley absurd.

What is a passion is when people think, in spite of the heresy they commune with, that the majority of so-called "Orthodox Christians" are the Church. This is a passion because heresy is a passion, and what difference are they from the heretic when they follow them and willingly go under them? That is not meant to be an insult, just my persepctive.

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Chrysostomos
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Post by Chrysostomos »

ioannis said:

This seems to me to be an attempt to try and "explain away" Genuine Orthodox Christians, who believe they are a remnant, as victims of their own passions.

Actually I think it is a valid question and I am not pretending to have the "definitive" answer, that is why I am asking the question. My intent is not to try and "explain away" anything.

I will state that even Genuine Orthodox Christians fall into the sin of pride and yes, and can believe they are part of the "remnant" church for the wrong reasons. Just as I can fall into the same trap myself.

But in order for you to say this, then you will also have to call the Holy Fathers, who wrote many times that they were the last remnant, sinners for saying this, which is just absolutley absurd.

To me, the Holy Fathers were much more illumined than you and I. Many where saints and experienced Theosis on earth. They can say that, because I believe they have gone through the purification process and are illumined - thus "Holy Fathers". You, I, and those on this board, I would believe would not equate ourselves to their spiritual level. Therefore, I believe for them to make the statement is one thing, for us, in our day and age, a completely different thing.

I can merely point to the issue that the "Remnant" Churches are at odds with one another. Many do not commune with one another. Many believe they are the true remnant, the others are schismatic.

What is a passion is when people think, in spite of the heresy they commune with, that the majority of so-called "Orthodox Christians" are the Church.

You focus on one possible passion of the many possible passions that we are confronted with and have to deal with on a daily basis. I believe you bring up this paticular passion, as it defends your Churches right to believe that it has the right to maintain that "remnant" status. My point is that all of us here on this board are subject to the "passion" of pride. None of us is exempt from it, regardless if we belong to one of the many "remnant" churches or not.

That is not meant to be an insult, just my persepctive.

You and I have gone around the "barn" enough times together to know that when we speak, that it is understood that is just our perspective and not meant as an insult and as such, I didn't take it as an insult.

I am glad that we are able to discuss this issue, and encourage others to discuss this question and others.

As you know Ioannis, I am for the unity of the Eastern Orthodox Faith, that we all might be one. I pray for that unity on a daily basis. My sincere prayer is that those who make up the "remnant" churches would be one. That would be a step in the right direction. I pray that ultimately we would all be one, but judging on how things go within today's Church it might be some time before that would ever take place! :) Yet, that doesn't prevent me from praying about it and for it!

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Kollyvas
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Spiritual Fathers...

Post by Kollyvas »

Christ is in our midst!
He is and ever shall be!
We are all sinners and assaulted by passions--let Christ and our spiritual Fathers and Mothers work this out...

Now to recapitulate for resisters:
There are genuine grounds for their opposition to the Oikumene; alas, unfortunately, a Counciliar structure which could accomodate their grievances has decayed and/or been corrupted. It is for this reason that we must never trivialize, dismiss or pigeonhole OUR FELLOW ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS. After all, how many actually want an ecumenism which sunders unity and insults the Church? How many want cooperation with godless states--liberal democratic or communist--which hasten the secularization of our communities and make our personal faith lukewarm and conflicted, perhaps legal, formal? Who wants a reformation in Canons, theology, discipline which embodies a protestant "orthodoxy"?! Who wants submission to heretical Rome even if under the auspices of least common denominator union and cash flow and political string pulling?! Who really acknowledges voices of those who compromise Orthodoxy as legitimate?! This is the pathos of resistance. Now, individual sins do not negate ones thirst for righteousness--often times they make it more acute.

I guess what I've addressed in the past was a critique of approach--let's do away with political superficialities and blunted understandings on both sides and quest for unity in dialogue and Orthopraxia. Let's ground ourselves in Blessed +Metroplitam Philaret's PODVIG OF PRAYER and while working on our souls and our lives in the Mysteries open our hearts to our brothers who are concerned, find out why, and find comfort in ONE SPIRIT as we rediscover unity.
In the LOVE of Christ,
R M Malleev-Pokrovsky

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George Australia
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Re: Spiritual Fathers...

Post by George Australia »

Kollyvas wrote:

Christ is in our midst!
a Counciliar structure which could accomodate their grievances has decayed and/or been corrupted.

If this were true (and I disagree that it is), it would mean that the Church is unable to function as the Church any more, and therefore, Christ's promise that not even the gates of Hades would prevail against her would be empty.
Despite the odds, even the Apostles managed to hold a Synod in Jerusalem.
Despite the majority of the Church being Arian, she managed to hold a Synod which condemned Arianism.
Despite the odds against her, the Church managed to hold a Synod against every heresy which has plagued her.
Why should this be any different? Because it is the last days? Even the Apostles said they were living in the last days, and yet they still got on with the job.
The "Sobornost", the "Concilliar" nature of the Church still lives. If it doesn't, then there is no Church.

"As long as it depends on Monothelitism, then Miaphysitism is nothing but a variant of Monophysitism."

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Kollyvas
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St. Maximos The Confessor...

Post by Kollyvas »

Christ is in our midst!
He is and ever shall be!
No, it does not mean antichrist has prevailed--it means Counciliarity has lapsed...the cause for Nicea, Constantinople, Ephesus, Chalcedon, etc. But the empowering organism for Counciliarity then was the Empire, and it is gone... Yes, returning to an Apostolic model would be great, but are our leaders today as the Holy Apostles once were?! At one time, Orthodoxy was officially confessed by one man, St. Maximos the Confessor--everything had fallen away and was corrupt--but Orthodoxy prevailed. The wheat of resistance is that it affirms Truth where others affirm compromise: it preserves the Church...Rhetoric cannot dismiss that.
In the LOVE of Christ,
R

AndyHolland
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Post by AndyHolland »

The follow link and comment from St. Seraphim of Viritsa is important. The book on his life is excellent. The man was clearly gifted by God:

From:
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/general/sts ... ritsa.aspx
Emphasis added:

There will come a time when not the persecutions but money and the goods of this world will take people far from God. Then many more souls will be lost than in the time of the persecutions. On the one hand, they will be putting gold on the domes and will put the crosses on them and on the other hand everywhere evil and falsehood will reign. The true Church always will be persecuted. They who want to be saved will be saved with illnesses and afflictions. The way in which the persecutions will occur will be very sly and it will be very difficult for one to foresee the persecutions. Dreadful will be that time; I pity those who will be living then.

He died shortly after WWII.

Andy Holland
Somerset PA

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