A question only for those supporting the ROCOR-MP Unia

[Jean-Serge]

When the ROCOR opened new parishes in the 90s, they were persecuted by members of the MP who came to disturb the faithfuls or by the administration who creted problems. Today, it is clear that the ROAC faces the same problem and that the MP is probably behind. If we think about ather religious groups in Russia, like protestants, we see they face the ame persecution.

We must remind that Orthodoxy is against any kind of persecution... So my question for you is : "How can you trust the MP and this renewal of Church life in Russia if it is not able to respect individual freedom, which is basic christian concept? How can you say there is religious freedom in Russia? How can you say the MP is not favoured by the authorities due to onscure reasons?""

I say that this question is for people supporting the Unia only... Others please refrain fron answering...

[Edward]

The Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia is precisely that, Outside Russia. When they began opening parishes within Russia, they violated the canons by impeding on another Church's canonical territory. That is just the canonical perspective but we know that canon law and civil law are often very different.

We have to admit this weakness in our church. Orthodoxy in the predominantly Orthodox countries has two types of followers, faithful believers and nationalists. Protestant missionaries justify their missionary work in Orthodox countries with the claim that Orthodoxy is heavily connected with ethnic nationalism. I would agree even though I think it is wrong for their to be such a connection.

As for Russia, one of my protestant friends told me he asked a Russian what it means to be a Russia and the latter replied, "it means to be Christian." In other words, to be Russian is to be an Orthodox Christian. This is why in Russian there are two words, "Russkii" (Russian by birth) and "Rossiiskii" (Russian national). In English we can say "Russian Jews" but in Russia, they would say, "He/She is not Russian (Russkii) but Jewish. This situation has been so for centuries.

The reason Russian nationalists support Orthodoxy and the Moscow Patriarchate is because they see Orthodoxy as the foundation of their society historically, and the source of Russian (ethnic) unity and Slavic brotherhood. To attempt to set up a parallel Orthodox Church, such as ROAC or the ROCOR parishes set up in the 90's, or for Protestants, Latins, and Sectarians to proselytise in Russia, is not like in the West of just "another religious phenomenon", but it is seen as an attempt to divide the Russian people and as an attack on the historical foundation of their culture and society. This is the same reason the Old Believers suffered such great persecution.

I cannot justify this behavior but again, this has been the case for centuries.

Edward
geh8988@gmail.com

[Jean-Serge]

I cannot justify this behavior but again, this has been the case for centuries.

Edward
geh8988@gmail.com

Well you do not justificate the behavior, but I am upset how you refuse to condemn such behavior from the MP (persecuting other believers) which is highly unchristian. I think not daring to condemn it as you is highly unchristian too. So I think you should moderate your critics against the anti-unia and remember that if we apply your thinking to muslim countries they should freely persecutate christians.

About ROCOR opening parishes in USSR and Russia, I remember you that were not new parishes but only parishes of the Catacomb church going out of clandestinity and many people joining them. I wonder if the MP did not received public support from the authorities, which was logical since they have the same KGB background how many people would have stayed in the MP.

The fact is when the ROCOR and ROAC spread in Russia they were not threatening national unity but indirectly threatening the power of the former communists.

Today Putin supports the MP but we must not forget their background is the same KGB, FSB. Conseuqently the MP supports Putin for example banning pro-monarchist manifestation in church...

I am quite upset by your unability to clearmy condemn persecution and find all sorts of justifications.

[Edward]

I am rather flattered you hold me in such high regard that my mere condemnation of something would have any impact on the state of affairs in Russia. I am not the head of any organization nor would my approvals or condemnations matter to anyone in any secular government, the Moscow Patriarchate, ROCOR, ROAC, ROCIE, HOCNA, GOC, etc., etc., etc.

No, I do not think it is right for anybody to persecute anybody for the religious beliefs. It was wrong to persecute the Old Believers. It was wrong that the Russian Church did not speak out against it. It was wrong that violent Pogroms were carried out against the Jews in the Russian Empire. It was wrong that the Russian Church did not speak out enough against that. It was wrong for the Nazi's to persecute the Jews. It was wrong that the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia did not speak out against this. It is highly disrespectful for Protestant groups to send missionaries to Russia. It is wrong when those Missionaries face discrimination or destruction of their property. It is wrong that the Russian Church does not speak out against it enough.

It is wrong for ROAC, FROC, or any other "True Orthodox" group face any discrimination in Russia and that the Moscow Patriarchate does not speak out against this.

Are you happy now? My previous comments were not a justification but an explanation.

My intentions are to show that the problems Orthodoxy find itself in are not rooted in our involvement in ecumenism, the calendar change, or the declaration of Metropolitan Sergius. The problems go further back than the early 20th century.

If we take this Old Calendarist, "Catacombist" mentality to it's logical conclusion, we could eventually find ourselves criticizing Christ Himself for choosing Judas as one of his 12 Disciples.

Edward
geh8988@gmail.com