ROCIE ecclesiology

Justin Kissel · Post by **Justin Kissel** » Mon 31 October 2005 5:39 pm

It says I must enter a message when posting, so this is my message.

ioannis · Post by **ioannis** » Mon 31 October 2005 7:12 pm

Justin, et al,

This is not at all uncommon of a personal position, I tend to subscribe to it myself to a degree.

The Church on earth does not control where and who has Myseriological Grace. Rather, the Church merely announces when it sees someone has apostacized from the faith. Following the law that has been given to us, it is for the protection and salvation of the flock. Now even though this was the case with the Latin church, who can say when exactly it fell away and lost Mysteriological Grace? More specifically, why Orthodox Christians sometimes say the clergy don’t have the Grace but the lay people may is because of the possibility that even when a community has been cut off from the Church officially, God may still protect certain individuals within that community. I would only argue that if God, Who is the Sovereign and Maker of the law, makes exceptions to His law, that is no reason for us, who are not privy to His secret judgments, not to keep the law. We must think however that the clergy, who are more responsible for following the path of righteousness, are judged harsher.

This is not strange thinking at all; this, or a rationalistic light-switch theory.

Kollyvas · Post by **Kollyvas** » Mon 31 October 2005 7:17 pm

With all due respect...how does this differ from the lutheran idea of consubstantiation? Moreover, how would you defend this from accusations of donatism? What Father supports this position?
From "the good ole days,"
R

Priest Siluan · Post by **Priest Siluan** » Tue 1 November 2005 9:17 am

ioannis wrote:
Justin, et al,

This is not at all uncommon of a personal position, I tend to subscribe to it myself to a degree.

The Church on earth does not control where and who has Myseriological Grace. Rather, the Church merely announces when it sees someone has apostacized from the faith. Following the law that has been given to us, it is for the protection and salvation of the flock. Now even though this was the case with the Latin church, who can say when exactly it fell away and lost Mysteriological Grace? More specifically, why Orthodox Christians sometimes say the clergy don’t have the Grace but the lay people may is because of the possibility that even when a community has been cut off from the Church officially, God may still protect certain individuals within that community. I would only argue that if God, Who is the Sovereign and Maker of the law, makes exceptions to His law, that is no reason for us, who are not privy to His secret judgments, not to keep the law. We must think however that the clergy, who are more responsible for following the path of righteousness, are judged harsher.

This is not strange thinking at all; this, or a rationalistic light-switch theory.

I agree totally with you, no man can manipulate the Grace of God, the bishops simply have the obligation to guide to their flock, if one would enter in a "accuracy" to where this the Grace... one would finish seeming a scholastic one.