Reflections

[Nikodemus]

Edward

I must say that we in fact agree on some points. As I understand it from the orthodox fathers you cannot say that ecclesiology fully overlaps soteriology since the orthodox church always professed that God ultimately saves according to His infinite mercy...and I believe that God, who is Absoulte Love, will save those who out of circumstances we dont know beforehand, try their best in their situation even though they according to ecclesiological principles are outside the Church. Christ Himself said about the Final Judgement that many will be surprised on that day. I must also say that I sometimes have problems with the emphasis on doxa for the definition of the borders of the Church. But, again, it is not I who are in a position to teach were the church is, only God himself in the person of the Holy Spirit and His instrument: The Church, can do so. And the Church is on this point very clear: Those with the wrong doxa, are outside the Church. Doxa overlaps the Church, but not necessarily soteriology. And as Joannes so rightly said: The Holy Fathers, these Vessels of The Holy Spirit, departed from those with wrong teaching and broke communion with them. St Paul himself warned that it must always be heresies (read divisions) among you. But he instructed us that this is to reveal those who stand strong to the test. You could also see it as Love of the Truth. It is not fanaticism, it is simply a confession of the orthodox faith and therefore also a protection of the church. Therefore, and this conclusion is most important. It is a confession of the True Christian Ecumenism. Because, True Unity can only mean Unity in one doxa, one baptism...one singe Witness to the world that lies in iniquity and is ruled by Satan: That God has won through His Cross which seed is the Church, The Bride of Christ.

False Ecumensim is the opposite of this...it seeks unity in something else than the ancient confession of Christ. If you analyze it, you will find that it actually seeks unity in Man and the rights of Man...It is the Unity and Universal brotherhood of the French Revolution within the Church, which political offsprings are the many liberalisms and socialisms and which ecclesiological principle is the ecumenism and religious unity of Assissi.

[ioannis]

Edward,

You assert brief generalizations about the fathers and what the Church teaches regarding this and that, but you cannot show any of it as being true.

Then you say, " At the same time, "World" Orthodoxy has not entered into communion with Rome or the Protestants or the Monophysites. "

This is also not true, assuming you consider official declarations of "world orthodox" synods and churches as collateral. According to official statements, you officially recognize them as churches and are in communion with all of them. You accept their marriages, their baptisms, their communion, their priesthood - not just officially on paper, but in everyday practice.

Stick your head in the sand and try to explain this away if you like, but the facts are the facts.

[Nikodemus]

And by the way...I love Metropolit Hiertotheos of Nafpaktos...especially The Person in the Orhtodox Tradition.

I think he explore subjects that are very important today...the healing of nous. I will read more about his books and can recommend the ones I read to others.

[Chrysostomos]

"It's great that you mention +Metropolitan Hierotheos. We could talk about his views on secularized versus therapeutic Orthodoxy and how true Orthodoxy creates relics. We could talk about how he maintains that error impacts the noetic health of the body and prevents its full cure in the Church. We could speak of his opposition to the theological minimalism and compromise embodied in ecumenical dialogue."

Let's not talk about it. Let's be living realities of it! The challenge we face in Orthodoxy today, is that many would rather talk, then apply the "prescription"/"therapy" of the Church. I have personally found much value in reading his writings and applying them in my own life.

It appears that you recognize the need for applying his views as well!

Please email me or share here how his writings have impacted you?

Your fellow struggler in Christ,

Rd. Chrysostomos

[Kollyvas]

Christ is in our midst!

They have reinforced my Orthodox formation which I received at Jordanville and Florence, and inculcated in me the need for a life in the Mysteries AND CULTIVATION OF THE PHRONEMA TES PATERES. I hope that that sine non qua has been impressed upon you as well in discussing sobornost'.

Orthodoxia I Thanatos!
R M Malleev-Pokrovsky

[Kollyvas]

Here's a few great pieces I highly recommend to all:

http://www.pelagia.org/htm/ar01.en.secu ... church.htm

http://www.pelagia.org/htm/b05.en.the_i ... oul.00.htm

http://www.pelagia.org/htm/ar03.en.the_ ... _world.htm

http://www.pelagia.org/htm/b15.en.ortho ... ity.00.htm

http://www.pelagia.org/htm/b02.en.ortho ... apy.00.htm

Enjoy!
R

[Edward]

Now that we are on the subject of Metropolitan Hierotheos Vlachos, let's look at his details. We all love his theology books, which in English is the tip of an iceberg compared to what is available in Greek. I really believe him to be a living Church Father because he communicates their theology in a way that is understandable to modern man.

Now to be a true theologian, you must be illumined by Divine grace through living life in the Church. How could Metropolitan Hierotheos write such great and edifying theology if he were not illumined? He is a Bishop, in fact a member of the Holy Synod, of the Church of Greece. He uses the New Calendar (but I am certain he favors the Old). If those in World Orthodoxy are truly outside the Church, then why in our midst do we find such theologians as Metropolitan Hierotheos? Saint Justin Popovic reposed in 1979 and despite his opposition to Ecumenism, was in the Serbian Church, which is also part of World Orthodoxy. How many Elders have we seen in Greece and still part of the New Calendar Church? What about Elder Raphael of Valaam or Elder Elias of Optina, who are clergymen of the Moscow Patriarchate? What about Elder Cleopas of Romania, an Elder who was in the Romanian Patriarchate. What about Elder Ephraim, who is now a clergyman in GOArch? Most of the Athonite Fathers still comemmorate of the Ecumenical Patriarchate and Holy men have still come from their midst.
You mentioned Metropolitan Philaret of ROCOR (of Thrice-blessed memory), his sorrowful epistles still address the other Orthodox bishops by their titles. He still called Patriarch Athenagoras "your holiness" and even closed one letter, "Asking for your prayers, I am your Holiness’ humble servant".
Saint John Maximovich served with New Calendar Bishops, he even permitted some of his Western rite parishes in France to use the New Calendar and Gregorian Paschalion.
Saint Nikolaj Velimirović also remained in communion with New Calendarists.
All these men believe(d) in the Orthodox Church as the sole Body of Christ and reject(ed) any sort of Branch Theory or Syncretism that is so often found in the Ecumenical Movement.
Despite the many problems in World Orthodoxy, the grace is still there. The Ecumenists, Modernists, Renovationists, and New Calendarists are a minority there. At Pascha, the Holy Fire still comes down from Heaven to light the candles of the Patriarch of Jerusalem. We should all know what happened when the Armenian Patriarch attempted to do so. Until an Ecclesiastical Synod anathematizes any of these Churches, they, despite their problems, are part of the Orthodox Church.

As for the Old Calendarists and modern day "Catacomb" Russian groups, there is no unity among them and they hardly recognize one another. They disagree with one another over the whole issue of grace in World Orthodoxy. Furthermore, those who believe World Orthodoxy to be graceless are further divided over when that grace was lost. There are now 13 different Old Calendar groups in Greece. If so many of these groups have the same ecclesiology, then why are they separate from one another? Strange enough, they criticize Orthodox Ecumenists over teaching the Branch theory, but some also teach that these various Old Calendar groups, although not in communion with one another are the Orthodox Church. Is this not also a branch theory? Well then who is the Archbishop of Athens, is it Chrysostomos, Maximos, or Nicholas, or one of the many others? Maybe you should believe like Metropolitan Cyprian of Oropos and Fili that he is True Primate of the Greek Church. Maybe they are all wrong and we ought to look to Metropolitan Valentine of ROAC. But what about the Free Russian Orthodox Church, or the Synod of Metropolitan Vitaly? Maybe the right choice is Gregory of Denver!

We confess to believe in One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. That oneness means one faith, one life, and eucharistic unity.

Edward
geh8988@gmail.com