United Front Against Heresy

Nikodemus · Post by **Nikodemus** » Mon 3 October 2005 8:13 am

One thing that I hope all of us pray for is a united front against ecumenism. For this to happen all traditional churches must be in communion with each other. I the greek old calendarist churches there exists now mostly historical differesnces but 90% of them have the same ecklesiology so whats the problem. If they formed one body and sought communion with ROAC and ROCOR-V, what a triumph for orthodoxy!

Edward · Post by **Edward** » Mon 3 October 2005 8:30 am

I think you are being too logical and rational about this. While, I believe in Orthodoxy's rejection of theological rationalism as found in Latin scholasticism, one of the negative aspects of this is the you find Orthodox people, especially in the "old countries" to go to the other extreme, meaning you will meet some of the most irrational people ever, many of whom hold to some amazing illogical conspiracy theory (i.e. Jewish-Masonic conspiracies).

As for a union of all the Greek Old Calendarists, that will never come because although most agree that "World Orthodoxy" is graceless, they do not agree as to the degree of that gracelessness or exactly when grace was lost. This issue is deeply ingrained in their ecclesiology. Let's say they all meet, what will happen when someone asks, "will the Archbishop of Athens please stand up." ? You are living in a fantasy land if you really think they will come together. The Matthewites split into two groups over the Old Man Trinity icon! I would agree that that icon is not theologically correct, but it is not worth creating a schism over it. Dormition Cathedral in the Moscow Kremlin has one painted on it and it was painted long before Peter the Great's reforms.

As for ROCIE and ROAC, they have already condemned each other.

Just face the reality that this will not happen because schisms do not come together, they just continue to separate. Just study the history of the Old Believers, because that is exactly where Greek Old Calendarism is headed.

Edward Henderson
geh8988@gmail.com

Nikodemus · Post by **Nikodemus** » Mon 3 October 2005 9:34 am

It is just because of this that I wrote this post. I agree with you that there exist a problem within Old Calendarism and ROAC ROCOR-V. Of course it would be naive to do what you suggest. The first thing should be to establish communion within some of these groups that agree on the main things. The problems that exists between this groups is the problem of super correctness. And this is a decease that must be dealt with. But what is the alternative? Do you suggest that we remain with those who are in communion with open heresy Monophysitism ...communion with Antiochian Patriarchate, communion EP...the heresy of ecumenism....communion with MP....the heresy of all these plus sergianism? No, we have to chose, and in my eyes any of these traditional churches have a true confession, even though I believe that the Matthewites are to extreme in their conclusions.

Then you mention scholasticism as a problem and indeed it is. And I agree with you that you should not go to the other extreme, to deny our God-given reason. It is just a question about the primacy og the spirit and the heart, and not the primacy of speculative theology on the principle of reason. Many scholastic theologians thought in a schema like this: God ought to have done something (according to natural law), He could have done something (according to his own potentiality) and conclusion: Therefore He did it!!! Such syllogisms have nothing to do with patristic humility. And we condemn them by reason, because they are basically quite silly.

Then you mention that you think the sionistic-masonic conspiracy is a example of irrationality. Many peple have this understanding but I never heard that they have thought rational about these matters themselves. Let me give one example of what I a mean.

Many conspiracy theorists (like myself) reason in this manner:

You have many empirical facts that certain people of a group have a great influence in media and politics.

This group has declared many times their motives for their struggle.

Their influence on media and politics serve these goals that they have declared openly

Conclusion: They have a conspiracy

I think this is a rational argument according to traditional standards of rationality.

According to Karl Popper, the famous empiricist philosopher a rational argument must be able to be falsified. Science is science because you can disprove it. Metaphysical claims are therefore not science according to Popper, because you cannot deny them with reason.

Now, look at the arguments above. You can falsify everyone of them: You can deny that this group has a great influence by prove that they in fact have not

You can deny the validity of the claims that this group has made public prounouncements about the motives of their goals.

You can deny that the media and politics in fact are based on this groups values.

And therefore you could deny the conclusion: Conspiracy

Therefore a conspiracy theory like this is very rational indeed.

Priest Siluan · Post by **Priest Siluan** » Mon 3 October 2005 12:48 pm

Edward wrote:
As for ROCIE and ROAC, they have already condemned each other.

??? It is not true

Edward · Post by **Edward** » Mon 3 October 2005 1:27 pm

Again, you are beating the same drum that has been beaten for over 20 years. Despite involvement in Ecumenism and dialogue, there is no union with Rome or the Protestants or the Monophysites. The generation of Archbishop Iakavos is retiring and/or dying off. Ofcourse, the Old Calendarists will not see this because they must villanize World Orthodoxy. The only thing worse than union with the heterodox for them would be if the EP, Antioch, etc. embraced traditional Orthodoxy. That is what is slowly happening. We ought to remember that the first thing the Antiochian Archdiocese in America did when it received autonomy was to withdraw from the NCC.
As for Moscow, just read the Social Concepts document published in 2000. You could also read Metropolitan Kyril of Smolensk's report to the 2004 Hierarchal Synod concerning rapproachment with ROCOR and the Old Believers.
We must also bear in mind that the Churches of Georgia, Bulgaria, and Jerusalem are no longer members of the WCC. I know Bishop Hilarion Alfiev (MP) of Vienna personally. He is on the forefront of interfaith and interconfession dialogue and made it clear to me that Moscow dialogues with other Christians and other faiths, but that they don't pray together. Metropolitan Cyprian of Oropos and Fili's film about ecumenism shook everyone, but such actions on the part of the Orthodox are not the standard.
Since coming to World Orthodoxy from the Old Calendar movement in 1998 (my church was under Metropolitan Paisios) and then living in Russia from 2000-2002, and 2004-present, plus a visit to Greece (including Mt.Athos), and having spoken with many on these subjects in Russia, Greece, England, and America, I can say that ecumenism is dying among the Orthodox.
Yet, the Old Calendarists are saying exactly what they have said for a long time. Their newspapers and journals simply repeat themselves. Finally, they divide and divide and divide. How many "catacomb" Russian Churches do we have now? I have never given it much thought because there are more important things to focus on. Again, both groups are treading on the same path as the Old Believers. Likewise, many of the Old Believer arguments are correct. Furthermore, the Old Believers tended to be more pious and they certainly suffered. But you have to ask yourself, are they the Church? Despite what became of the Russian Church after the 17th century, was it still and is it still the Church? I believe the same to be for the rest of the World Orthodoxy. The problems are obvious and everyone here (me included) can do an excellent job pointing them out. But experience has led me to believe that one cannot understand a situation that one is not involved in and we are certainly in these days, unworthy to judge anybody. We know where this world is headed and by God's grace we have the Church where we may work our salvation. Hopefully the day will come where all this is sorted in a Pan-Orthodox Synod. If that doesn't happen, there will always be the Last Judgement!

Edward
geh8988@gmail.com

Грешник · Post by **Грешник** » Mon 3 October 2005 2:00 pm

Father Bless!

Agreed, the ROAC and ROCiE have "sour relations" but there has never been an outright condemnation of either group by either group. We can only wait and see if these talks resume and I for one pray for this to occur with some positive results.

Nikodemus · Post by **Nikodemus** » Mon 3 October 2005 2:16 pm

Edward

I did not become orthodox to be in union with monophysits in AP!