How do the Orthodox Fathers view fantasy and the imagination

[Ebor]

But, when Jules died and when astronauts die, they will not be judged for their accomplishments in liturature or space expeditions, produced by fantasy and imagination. They will be judge for their faith in Jesus Christ. Even if their fantasies or imaginations have allowed them to accomplish so much for mankind... that is not the goal of mankind. The goal of mankind is to attain the Holy Spirit. Did they do that?

How do you know they didn't? And this repetition that things created by "Fantasy and Imagination", how do you know that God did not create them to do that as well?

Mankind has created these distractions because they have been slowly led away from God, by you know who.

Distractions? What if God has given the ability and desire to strive for such works? He made the Universe and all that is therein after all.

Just read the Bible and see what Christ taught. He didn't talk about making great worldly accomplishments, He talked about His Father's Kingdom. He talked about spiritual matters.

He also spoke of feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and living in charity and humility with our neighbors. And human beings have made things or done things that have made such things possible sometimes.

You can be the discoverer for the cure for cancer, but if you're an atheist, you will not get into God's Kingdom. Worldly accomplishments are left for the world...spiritual accomplishments bring a soul close to God.

And finding a cure might be a way for spiritual accomplishments to then happen. Maybe you don't find anything spiritual in the discoveries of science. Other people might.

That is what I meant about being left empty. The soul does not attain a union with God through worldly accomplishments based on fantasy and imagination.

How do you know this? You are not God.

But, I assume you were referring to their accomplishments due to their imaginations.

How do you know that these were due to their "imaginations"? What do you mean by the word? Creating anything at all? Coming up with ideas?

What if the astronauts realized that their efforts of space travel was just a means of trying to find God out there somewhere in a sentient being?

Interesting speculation. and what if that was not why they went out at all?

Ebor

[joasia]

How do you know they didn't? And this repetition that things created by "Fantasy and Imagination", how do you know that God did not create them to do that as well?

All I know is what the holy fathers taught and they were very clear on the differences between worldly accomplishments and spiritual ones.

Distractions? What if God has given the ability and desire to strive for such works? He made the Universe and all that is therein after all.

Oh please. Are you a protestant? Anybody who has taken the Orthodox teachings to heart will understand, but you want to argue polemics. God doesn't give man the "desire" to "strive for such works", He helps them to strive for the Holy Spirit. The works we do in the world is just a means of paying the bills. It doesn't help us get into God's Kingdom. Can you get that straight, Ebor??

He also spoke of feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and living in charity and humility with our neighbors. And human beings have made things or done things that have made such things possible sometimes.

More polemics. These things are done from the heart, they don't imagine it in some virtual reality fantasy. Get real. What is your support about fantasy, in this issue? Stop trying to distract the issue and address it, directly. We are talking about fantasy in life here. Don't think I'm stupid. You're tactics are transparent.

[quotee] a cure might be a way for spiritual accomplishments to then happen. Maybe you don't find anything spiritual in the discoveries of science. Other people might.[/quote]

More polemics. You just don't get it. All you want to do is argue.

That is what I meant about being left empty. The soul does not attain a union with God through worldly accomplishments based on fantasy and imagination.

How do you know this? You are not God.

The holy fathers teach it. You should read it some day, instead of wasting my time arguing about it. I really don't see the point of an Orthodox spiritual discussion with someone who is oblivious to the Orthodox teachings.

Here's a quote from one of the saints...maybe you should respect it, instead of arguing against it:

"From this it is clear that, compared with the things valued and prized by men, what is loved by God is better and more precious by far. For the things that men value lack being; they only seem to exist because of mistaken judgment, but have no principle of existence at all: there is only the fantasy, which cheats the intellect and through passion supplies non-existent things with empty form but no real substance.(St. Maximos, the confessor, Philokalia, vol. 2, page 264).

Ebor, if you want to argue with someone, then go and argue with St. Maximos. I only repeat what I'm taught. You'll have to take it up with my teachers. But, you are wrong in your presumptions. Learn something about humility, and then give your opinion.

I am answering you this one time...I will not continue this ridiculous questioning.

[CGW]

Again, I don't have the Philokalia in my hands here, but looking about at references on-line to St. Maximos' use of the word "fantasy", it's quite clear that he is using it in the sense of imagined things which are believed to be true. He seems to be talking about self-delusion, not a literary/rhetorical form.

As far as the part of about not using the imagination when praying, the rationale for that is quite reasonable. Using the imagination puts one in peril of praying to a false god of one's imagining. I'd question how much one can avoid unconscious use of the imagination anyway, but that's not really germane. The point is that this is different from reading a narrative, and that for the latter the use of the imagination is essential. And it doesn't matter whether the narrative is fictional or not. With narrative the problem moves over into the issue of keeping the fictional and the imagined distinct from the real, and if you press this point too hard, the modernists will come out of the woodwork and transform everything in to fiction. Somehow it is necessary to hold onto the fictional and imagined and the actual at the same time, and yet to be able to draw lines between them.

[CGW]

He also spoke of feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and living in charity and humility with our neighbors. And human beings have made things or done things that have made such things possible sometimes.

More polemics. These things are done from the heart, they don't imagine it in some virtual reality fantasy.

Aside from the problem that you're using the term "virtual reality" very loosely, the fact is that they do imagine it. Perhaps it requires no planning to give a dollar to a beggar, but to organize a charity-- that requires planning, and planning requires imagination. Even your own actions here require this, for you must imagine that there is some good to be obtained by engaging in such a forum as this.

Everything that a modern person does is heavily dependent on imagination and planning. Imagination gives us power lines and phone lines and gasoline and diesel engines and.... Perhaps you yourself can attempt to give up this but as long as you are willing to answer a phone or plug in a lamp or ride a bus, you are in the dubious position of relying on the "immorality" of others.

[Miriam]

If using your imagination is so detrimental to your soul.... How is it that everyone needed the imagry of Gibson's Passion to imagine Christ's suffering? Yet to read a book and imagine the story it portrays is bad. The rhetoric in this post is pitiful!

For my self ...I have a very vivid imagination. It helps me imagine Christ's suffering without the help of movies like The Passion. It helps me "see" the lives of the saints when I read them. And it helps me imagine the worlds created in the science fantasy books that I love to read .... ever since I was a young child.

Reading, imagination, creativity, fantasy ..... all things given to us by GOD but condemned by MAN. Where have we gotten to? :ohvey:

Mira

[joasia]

Okay, this is enough. I can't believe how much I'm being attacked for my commentary.

Thank you for your questions. I was just focusing on the spiritual issue of how we are so effected by the worldly view of fantasy.

We obviously don't see it the same way. Please forgive me for anything I said that may have offended anyone.

In Christ,

Joanna

[Ebor]

Okay, this is enough. I can't believe how much I'm being attacked for my commentary.

People disagree with your posted views and post their own. That's not the same as being "attacked".

I was just focusing on the spiritual issue of how we are so effected by the worldly view of fantasy.

I think that one of the differing points was that perhaps you are affected by this. Other people are not. It is not universal.

Ebor