Serbian Genocide

[Tessa]

It is for this reason I believe that we should be asking the prayers of the New Martyrs of Serbia, both of last century and this century, as well as asking their forgiveness, since, in my opinion, it is the Orthodox in the West who betrayed and abandoned them. And it is enough that Patriarch Pavle is a Confessor at the hands of NATO, KFOR, the UCK and God knows who else, without having to be a Confessor at the hands of his fellow Orthodox Christians.
George

again than you george you took the words out of my mouth.
in Christ
Tessa

[George Australia]

I'm called a zeigeist by George,

Dear in Christ Joasia,
"Zeitgeist" simply means "spirit of the time"- neither you nor anyone else can be "a zeitgeist". We can only either choose to follow or reject the current zeitgeist.

George

[joasia]

George wrote:

This is a childish notion- akin to the childish belief that crossing one's fingers behind one's back makes it 'not a lie'. "It's not a judgement until it's final" won't cut the cheese on Judgement Day, when, as Our Lord tells us, we will all have to answer for every idle word.

Haven't you ever had an opinion about someone's chararcter and then realized that there was more to that person than you thought? It's an ever changing phase. A judgement is something that will never change in a person's mind. It's not childish...it's just plain logic. Superstitions have nothing to do with it.

We are all learning. But we don't learn by making pronouncements on others. If we are not sure, then the thing to say is: "I'm not sure". We don't "test our theories" by saying things we aren't sure about as though we were sure about them. Things like "They are heretics", "they are schismatics", "they are betrayers of Orthodoxy" may be 'opinions', but an opinion is simply how we judge a person or situation or anything else we perceive. But once we say it, there certainly can be no doubt that they become judgements- we are "passing judgement".

We don't make pronouncemets on others? You should talk. You've made some definite pronouncements by labelling people. One word that comes to mind is: zeitgeist. We all say things that we think we are sure about, but the fact that we can say we are sorry for what we've said, is an act of repentance. I've never seen you write that you were sorry about what you said that made somebody feel bad.

You would rather say something like:

I hope this is true about being open to constructive guidance, and I hope you understand that it is because I respect you that I feel I am able to write what I am about to write.

To me, when a person uses so many words to make it look like they are apologizing, it just sounds fake. Couldn't you just say that you're sorry that you made me feel bad, or is that against the Greek male vocabulary? Or perhaps you think that you are so righteous that you don't have to say those two little words. Let's make it easier, just say one word: signomi.

this is why, rather than pointing the finger at each other,

In another thread you seem to be pointing alot of fingers at OOD and Deacon Nicholai....even questioning their ability to be moderators of this cafe. Is that your OPINION or a JUDGEMENT call? Remember...idle words are judged by God...

few of us agree on what the definition of Ecumenism is. If we are going to condemn something, shouldn't we be able to at least agree on the definition of what we are condemning? And in order to do this, shouldn't we at least give an Ecumenical Synod a chance? We are getting nowhere sitting in our corners not talking to each other.

The point is, we cannot do anything for certain at the moment, because while many of us agree that Ecumenism is an error, few of us agree on what the definition of Ecumenism is.

We all know what the agenda of the ecumenists are..they want to destroy the Apostolic traditions which is the true faith in God. They oppose anything within the Seven Ecumenical Councils. What's more of a concern is who we can trust. Some may be deceiving us and some may have been slandered in order to make us believe that they are deceiving us. That is my struggle. It's difficult to know who is with the true faith.

And in order to do this, shouldn't we at least give an Ecumenical Synod a chance? We are getting nowhere sitting in our corners not talking to each other.

The world is too divided to have an Ecumenical Synod. Now YOU are talking like a child, in fantasy land. It seems to me, that everybody is talking. No one is in their little corners. They're just talking about doing something that is not right by God...to unite all religions of the world; but not under Christ. NO. Christ isn't even mentioned at these meetings.

Membership of the WCC may (or may not be) the result of being Ecumenists, but we cannot say that membership of the WCC Is a heresy. Heresy relates to matters of doctrine- only a doctrine can be a heresy.

So the doctrine of the pagans that participate are not considered a heresy? Let's do a salutation to the goddess of the moon. Have you READ what kind of prayers they have at these functions??

Forgive my ignorance, but I thought that paganism was a heresy. And that any participation with them was against the Orthodox dogma.

Can you possibly talk with me instead of lecture me? Because I can bring up enough posts that you have written that sound quite judgemental.

Zeitgeist" simply means "spirit of the time"- neither you nor anyone else can be "a zeitgeist". We can only either choose to follow or reject the current zeitgeist.

So let me rephrase my comment: You believe that I am influenced by the zeigeist mentality? Talk about being judgemental. You don't even know me and you have labelled me as such.

And not only that...you further prove my point by using your many words instead of saying that you are sorry that you made that comment. Instead, you use your annal explanation to justify that you were referring to a state of mind of the world, which you accused me of being part of, but not that the word describes a person, just a "spirit of the time".

Is it possible that you MIGHT be wrong about you're view about me? I would like to think that I could be wrong about my view about you.

SrbMama,

You seemed to have missed the whole point of my message to you.

[Tessa]

SrbMama,

You seemed to have missed the whole point of my message to you.

Wait. Was there a message being directed towards me in the first place?
Anyways Joasia I'm sorry about the rude cradle vs. convert comment. I guess I just was a little angry after reading the "which Patriarch is worse" poll and I took it out here.

Out of constructive criticism though...

They weren't killed for being Serbians, they were killed for being Orthodox, hence the desecration of the churches. It was a clear message.

Orthodoxy is being Serbian. There are Serbians that are not Orthodox, they are called CROATIANS and the other new term is BOSNJACI. You can be Orthodox and not be Serbian, but you can't be Serbian and not be Orthodox.

Yes, they are a memeber of the WCC and they are betraying the blood of their fellow Serbs that died at the hands of papist butchers because they were Orthodox. How very, very sad.

Ok here the "Papist butcher" thing is unclear. What is the corrolation to the WCC? Is the Pope in the WCC? I thought more Protestant type were in it. And if I remember correctly Roman Catholics don't like them either.

You're right George, it can't be both ways. The Serb martyrs died because they were Orthodox, including many clergy and now their predecessors are kissing the behinds of the ones who agree with the killing, by being present at these WCC meetings.

Firstly, bad taste saying that clergy are kissing behinds. Second, where did you here that the WCC agrees with the killing? Ok if the Catholics are in the WCC I understand, but Muslims? Saudi Arabia armed alot of our Slavic Muslims during this last war, and they are DEFINITELY not members of the WCC.

If the Patriarch of Serbia supports the WCC, then he is betraying the Orthodox faith and the martyrs of this spiritual warfare. Hundreds of monasteries and churches were destroyed and desecrated in WW2 and thereafter and he still has the audacity to go to the WCC! And during these continuous slaughters! I wouldn't do that, would you?

What? I just don't see the corrolation between him going to meetings, which by the way I have never seen with my own eyes, and churches being physically destroyed. Most of the churches I know of in the last 15 years were again, destroyed by Muslims. Are they at these meetings? Is he "kissing their behinds" there? I hear the Nativity and Pascha epistles from Patriarch Pavle read in church every year, in their ORIGINAL language, and NEVER are they about ecumenism or anything of that nature. They are more about our need to struggle, to fast, to be better Christians, and more Christ-like. Again I don't know where you're getting your information, but the internet is often full of opinions and twisted versions of reality. Sometimes things are taken out of context or translated incorrectly.

I am not saying that I agree with the WCC or that he is not a member. I am just saying I don't feel it's my job to give my opinion about the actions of a person who God has put in a position of authority above me, has had more education, has LIVED on this world longer, and is by far a better Christian than I will ever be.

In Christ,
Tessa

[joasia]

SrbMama,

There are Serbians that are not Orthodox, they are called CROATIANS and the other new term is BOSNJACI. You can be Orthodox and not be Serbian, but you can't be Serbian and not be Orthodox.

You seem to have a very deep rooted nationalistic concept about it. But, there are the Serbians who just reject Orthodoxy and become atheists.

Ok here the "Papist butcher" thing is unclear. What is the corrolation to the WCC? Is the Pope in the WCC? I thought more Protestant type were in it. And if I remember correctly Roman Catholics don't like them either.

The papists are very much involved with the events of the WCC. The pope was the one that allowed the slaughter of the Serbs, by his croatian priest hencemen. And now the Pat of Serbia is a member, but the pope is not. But, the pope is very much involved with the agenda of the WCC. I don't believe that I'm the only one that sees this.

I don't know about the papists not liking the protestants. They are there worshipping and praying together, along with pagans, so draw your own conclusions.

The pope has been present at many of their worshipping functions. Am I the only one that knows this? I've even seen pictures.

I wasn't making a corrolation...I"m stating that the Pat of Serbia is a member of the WCC and the papists definitely have their dance card filled at this function.

Firstly, bad taste saying that clergy are kissing behinds.

My apologies. I was upset at the time that I wrote that. I will have to go to confession soon. Please forgive me.

Second, where did you here that the WCC agrees with the killing?

Did you ever hear them make statements against it?

What? I just don't see the corrolation between him going to meetings, which by the way I have never seen with my own eyes, and churches being physically destroyed.

He is a member, isn't he? Or am I completely off the mark? Even if you didn't see it with your own eyes. I said that the churches were destroyed by the croatians and he still chooses to join the WCC, of which there is the pope, who gave the "blessing" for the croations to destroy the Orthodox churches.

I am questioning his participation in a group that promotes ecumenism which is obviously an attack on Orthodoxy. Because we all know that ecumenists, communists and all the other -ists hate the true faith which is Orthodoxy. So WHY is an Orthodox hierarchy participating in it?

Again I don't know where you're getting your information, but the internet is often full of opinions and twisted versions of reality. Sometimes things are taken out of context or translated incorrectly.

He is a member of the WCC. That is not a twisted interpretation. This is a fact. And all I'm doing is questioning. Why, why, why his he with the WCC? There is a motive, a reason. Don't be an ignorant child...tell me why he is with the WCC.

What could he possibly gain from it, if he is so Orthodox? What is his reason?? That's all I ask. I don't blame. I just want to know why. I know men make major mistakes and they are faced with difficult choices. Just tell me why he is with a group that performs pagan rituals, even in front of the pope. I've seen pictures. I'm not fantasizing.

I am not saying that I agree with the WCC or that he is not a member. I am just saying I don't feel it's my job to give my opinion about the actions of a person who God has put in a position of authority above me, has had more education, has LIVED on this world longer, and is by far a better Christian than I will ever be.

It is all of our jobs to uphold/confess the true faith, even if it means questioning our hiearchs' actions. Just because he lived longer than us or is more educated(?)...what is the value of education anyways? It's the knowledge of the truth that makes a person closer to God, not that he is more educated, because frankly, the so-called education of these hierarchs is quite disappointing. They may know all the canons of the Seven Ecumenical Councils, but look at their actions. It's pretty pathetic.

There is nothing wrong with questioning the actions of our hierarchs. In essence, they have to answer to us, because they are making these decisions in their synodal meetings without concern for our fate.

My Greek girlfriend told me that it was due to the actions of the laity(Greek), in centuries passed, that kept priests and bishops from falling away. They wanted to change something in the church or move to another synod...something that was against the Orthodox tradition of the Seven Ecumenical Councils and the people spoke up.

I will give you specific examples, if you like.

Again, my question is, why did Pat Pavel join the WCC?

Please remember that I am not being obstinant. If I am refuted then I will accept. I am still learning. I just have a habit about asking why. That's how I came to Orthodoxy in the first place...I kept questioning the catholic authorities.

Don't get me wrong, I want a union with all Orthodox, but we all have to believe in the same way. The Orthodox way.

[George Australia]

Letter of Patriarch Pavle to SFOR Commander.

His Holiness the Serbian Patriarch Kyr Pavle sent a letter during Holy Week of 2004 to U.S. Major General Virgil L. Pickett, the SFOR commander in Bosnia-Herzegovina, stating the following:

Several times already we have asked the SFOR [Stabilization Force in Bosnia-Herzegovina], the High Representative of the International Community in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and even the Secretary-General of the United Nations to put a halt to the completely needless and improper mistreatment of Orthodox residents of the small town of Pale on Mt. Romanija, and the destruction of their property by military forces, which arrived in this part of Europe to help in keeping the peace and establishing understanding and tolerance.

Code: Select all

    We last wrote you regarding this issue only in February of this year after forces under your command, in full battle gear, with the justification that they were seeking persons suspected of war crimes, broke into a church and apartments of Orthodox priests in Pale at the end of the Christmas holidays, where they carried out searches and frightened the household members and their small children.

    However, as our letter failed to convince you that our priests and the members of their families take no part in the activities of which you obviously suspect them, you, Sir, ordered that nothing short of a military campaign be launched against their homes on 1 April 2004, on the very eve of the Easter holidays. In the dead of night, your soldiers, using the most lethal explosive devices, broke in through the roof, the door and the windows of one of these homes, completely destroying it in the process.

     The strong explosion wounded Archpriest Stavrophor Jerimiah Starovlah and his son, Catechist Aleksandar. But this was not enough for your soldiers, called "peacekeepers" by our people. They proceeded to tie up Father Jerimiah and his son and, while thus tied, they savagely beat them using rifle butts, boots and whatever else they had on hand. In short, they beat them to the point of death.

    The entire time this was occurring, the Presbytera (the priest's wife) had a gun pointed at her with a finger on the trigger, so she could not help her son or her husband. These facts, Sir, are well know to you. At the time of the writing of this letter, physicians are still fighting for the lives of these two Christians, who are suffering for the same reason the martyrs suffered under the Romans; for the name of Christ!

     If it was not clear to you until that day, Sir, that Serbian priests are not hiding those whom you have indicted for committing war crimes, we hope you are now so convinced. Or perhaps you  are not, and we should expect to see once again those whom we wished to see as men of goodwill coming with bombs, guns and boots against our holy shrines, the lives of our priests and their families. 

     At this time we wish to advise you that we will inform the global community in the broadest sense of the contents of this letter. 


            Respectfully,

    Pavle
    Archbishop of Pec, Metropolitan of Belgrade
    and Karlovac, and Serbian Patriarch.

source

[joasia]

George,

Thank you for the article.