Serbian Genocide

[joasia]

Sorry for the confusion George.

I have challenged the necessity and meaning of the "World Orthodox" section on this forum and have yet to receive a satisfactory reason for it's existence.

Yes, I read that thread. I always thought that World Orthodoxy meant Orthodoxy of this World as opposed to True Orthodoxy of God's Kingdom: Orthodoxy, being translated from, the Greek, straight and doxy meaning doctrine. I don't have to tell you that.

As I see it, this world is pretty crooked. Webster's Dictionary describes this word as meaning: not straightforward, dishonest , swindling. Also, comes from the word crook which means, swindler, thief. That to me is the essence of ecumenist Orthodoxy.

...and, some on this forum would say (and have already said)that the Patriarchate of Serbia are not part of the Church at all because of this.

If the hierarch or clergy is supporting ecumenism and heretical teachings, then they are not Orthodox. They have fallen away. This should be a clear distinction between True Orthodox and pseudo-Orthodoxy.

If they are confessing the truth, then they are being slandered. It is the Cross they have to bare.

So are you saying, in accordance with the current zeitgeist on this forum, that the Orthodox Serbs being slaughtered today in Kosovo are not martyrs? We cannot have it both ways, Joanna. We cannot call someone both a "martyr" and a "betrayer" of Orthodoxy.

I didn't say that. I said that those who are in the WCC have betrayed their fellow Orthodox brothers and sisters, by becoming involved in the WCC after what happened.

You're right George, it can't be both ways. The Serb martyrs died because they were Orthodox, including many clergy and now their predecessors are kissing the behinds of the ones who agree with the killing, by being present at these WCC meetings.

If the Patriarch of Serbia supports the WCC, then he is betraying the Orthodox faith and the martyrs of this spiritual warfare. Hundreds of monasteries and churches were destroyed and desecrated in WW2 and thereafter and he still has the audacity to go to the WCC! And during these continuous slaughters! I wouldn't do that, would you?

Please don't label me a zeitgeist. If you knew me, you wouldn't think it was possible. I'm so far away from the spirit of this world.

[George Australia]

The Serb martyrs died because they were Orthodox, including many clergy and now their predecessors are kissing the behinds of the ones who agree with the killing, by being present at these WCC meetings.

Dear in Christ Joasia,
The Roman Catholics are not members of the WCC.
George

[Tessa]

Thank you, George.
I love it when people who can count on their fingers how many years they have been Orthodox for can judge our Patriarch, Bishops, and priests.

BOZE NAM OPROSTI.
GOD FORGIVE US.

In Christ,
Tessa

[尼古拉前执事]

Can we please try and keep this thread on topic and not let it denigrate into a convert vs cradle or a ecumenist vs traditionalist thread and focus on the subject of these horrible deaths and prayers for them?

[romiosini]

Thank you, George.
I love it when people who can count on their fingers how many years they have been Orthodox for can judge our Patriarch, Bishops, and priests.

BOZE NAM OPROSTI.
GOD FORGIVE US.

In Christ,
Tessa[/quote]

If only people knew the beatings His Holliness Patriarch Paul got as Bishop of Kosovo (Raska-Prizren) defending Orthodoxy in Serbia. But it seems we have brought ourselves to such a level of theoria where we are granted to judge. WCC can mean nothing if it is ignored. Allready the majority of the bishops of the Serbian Church is standing against Ecumenism... George is right. Are the martyrs today not martyrs because they are in the WCC due to economical needs? But, obviously that is not a post that has to be on..
If Father Nicholas wants to have more dedication of this post to the horrible deaths and prayers to them, then it has nothing to do with World Orthodoxy. I suggest maybe to have this post moved somewhere else, if the talk about WCC and Ecumenism wouldn't be written of.

[joasia]

It's obvious that I am being misunderstood. How I think about it in my mind doesn't come out the same way in writing...especially about these issues. I ask for your patience, please.

I did not state that the RC was a member. I said that those who participate or are present at. If I said it before, then I was corrected.

SrbMama,

I did not judge. It was my view, my opinion. Judgement is final, opionions can change. People use the word judgement, judging and such too loosely. It is more appropriate to say that my opinion is inaccurate or you disagree.

If the hierarch or clergy is supporting ecumenism and heretical teachings, then they are not Orthodox. They have fallen away. This should be a clear distinction between True Orthodox and pseudo-Orthodoxy.

If they are confessing the truth, then they are being slandered. It is the Cross they have to bare.

My distinction is the confession of Orthodoxy. I was simply addressing my view of the confession of faith. That is what has brought up my questionings of Orthodox hierarch, "participating" or "going" to the WCC meetings. Would a black person go to a KKK meeting? In my mind, the WCC is the spiritual equivalent to the KKK. That is why I wondered about the Serbian Pat being friendly with the WCC. I hope somebody can understand what I'm trying to say.

For a person who can count how many years, on her hands, that she is Orthodox...please enlighten me to the distinction of it being alright to participate in the WCC.

And as I recall, there has been alot of ROCOR bashing for having meetings with the MP and perhaps a prayer or two here and there, and yet they are not OFFICIALLY with the MP, yet many people here seem to thing it's the same thing. And that they are pro-ecumenist. And they have joined the ecumenist ranks. But, with the Serbians who are members of the WCC...the Pat. should be cut a break. Why???

Please explain this confusion to me. In my mind, this looks like a double-standard.

I'm called a zeigeist by George, and judgemental by SrbMama.

All I'm looking for is a clear stance on Orthodoxy against ecumenism by any hierarchs who have the courage to speak up even unto death for their Orthodox confession and not have any meetings with a group whose agenda is quite clear, even to my simple mind.

But, all I see is compromise, compromise, compromise. And more confusion. And let it ride...except for ROCOR.

I ask for everyone's forgiveness. I know I still have a lot to learn. But, I have strong feelings about what I see, and I guess my commentary is also a way of bringing it out. But, I am always open to constructive guidance.

[George Australia]

I know I still have a lot to learn. But, I have strong feelings about what I see, and I guess my commentary is also a way of bringing it out. But, I am always open to constructive guidance.

Dear in Christ, Joasia,
I hope this is true about being open to constructive guidance, and I hope you understand that it is because I respect you that I feel I am able to write what I am about to write.

I did not judge. It was my view, my opinion. Judgement is final, opionions can change.

This is a childish notion- akin to the childish belief that crossing one's fingers behind one's back makes it 'not a lie'. "It's not a judgement until it's final" won't cut the cheese on Judgement Day, when, as Our Lord tells us, we will all have to answer for every idle word.
We are all learning. But we don't learn by making pronouncements on others. If we are not sure, then the thing to say is: "I'm not sure". We don't "test our theories" by saying things we aren't sure about as though we were sure about them. Things like "They are heretics", "they are schismatics", "they are betrayers of Orthodoxy" may be 'opinions', but an opinion is simply how we judge a person or situation or anything else we perceive. But once we say it, there certainly can be no doubt that they become judgements- we are "passing judgement".
I have found, in my limited experience, that there is nothing like respect for others, no matter what. I disagree with the theology of some on this board, but I would never call them "heretics". I don't even think they are "heretics". There was one instance when someone was teaching something clearly heretical, and it was because of the teachings of the Ecumenical Councils which teach that Christ is One Hypostasis, that Christ's Hypostasis is dypictable in Icons, and that Christ was circumscribed in the flesh that I raised an objection. It was because of these clear teachings which all Orthodox Christians must agree to be true that I was able to say that "what you are teaching is clearly heretical" when they wrote things which contradicted these three dogmas. In the same way, the first question anyone should ask before calling someone an "Ecumenist" is: "What exactley is an Ecumenist?" If we use ROCOR's definition, an ecumenist is one who teaches and holds the false doctrine of the "Branch Theory". If we use other's definition, it is anyone in the WCC.... do you see the problem? No one can clearly draw the line which defines the heresy of "ecumenism" which all who hold the Orthodox Christian Faith must beleive... ...this is why, rather than pointing the finger at each other, we need a General Ecumenical Synod to decide this matter of "what is Ecumenism". There is a further problem in that some would not accept the decision of even an Ecumenical Synod since they hold that all of "World Orthodoxy" is outside the Church, and therefore cannot hold a valid Ecumenical Synod. Every other Ecumenical Synod caused a similar division in the Church from the First Ecumenical synod which seperated the Church from the Arians, to the Seventh Ecumenical Synod which seperated the Church from the iconoclasts. The point is, we cannot do anything for certain at the moment, because while many of us agree that Ecumenism is an error, few of us agree on what the definition of Ecumenism is. If we are going to condemn something, shouldn't we be able to at least agree on the definition of what we are condemning? And in order to do this, shouldn't we at least give an Ecumenical Synod a chance? We are getting nowhere sitting in our corners not talking to each other.
Membership of the WCC may (or may not be) the result of being Ecumenists, but we cannot say that membership of the WCC Is a heresy. Heresy relates to matters of doctrine- only a doctrine can be a heresy.
It is for this reason I believe that we should be asking the prayers of the New Martyrs of Serbia, both of last century and this century, as well as asking their forgiveness, since, in my opinion, it is the Orthodox in the West who betrayed and abandoned them. And it is enough that Patriarch Pavle is a Confessor at the hands of NATO, KFOR, the UCK and God knows who else, without having to be a Confessor at the hands of his fellow Orthodox Christians.
George

James 3
1My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.

2For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.

3Behold, we put bits in the horses' mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn about their whole body.

4Behold also the ships, which though they be so great, and are driven of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor listeth.

5Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!

6And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

7For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind:

8But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.

9Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.

10Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.

11Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?

12Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.

13Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.

14But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.

15This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.

16For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.

17But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

18And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.