Question If ROCOR joins MP will all ROCOR threads go here?

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尼古拉前执事
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Post by 尼古拉前执事 »

George Australia wrote:

If those who use the term "World Orthodox" were indeed sincere and guiless, they would use the term "UNORTHODOX" or "HETERODOX" to describe those they disagree with and consider 'heretical'.

The term is just a more gentle way of saying that. Not all that use the term are doing so to call them holy heretics, but even the forum description says Discussions of New Calendarists, Ecumenists or the so-called "World Orthodox" jurisdictions that have sought communion with or have succumbed to the heresies of Ecumenism, Iconoclasm, Modernism, Monophysitism, Nestorianism or Sergianism.. ALso of note, I believe the writings by your Synod George use this very term of "World Orthodox churches" and "World Orthodoxy".

P.S. Welcome back Peter!

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pjhatala
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Post by pjhatala »

Deacon Nikolai wrote:

P.S. Welcome back Peter!

Thanks Deacon Nicholas(hard to get used to saying that :) ) . I tried to register with my previous name, but no luck.

Joshua F
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Post by Joshua F »

George Australia wrote:

If those who use the term "World Orthodox" were indeed sincere and guiless, they would use the term "UNORTHODOX" or "HETERODOX" to describe those they disagree with and consider 'heretical'.

This is an interesting semantic point; in practice, do you call the papacy "Catholic" or adherents of the pope "Catholics"? I know some refuse to do so on the grounds that "Catholic" signifies universality, only properly attributable to a truly universal church, ie. the true Church. However, if you call them "papists" you have to deal with the etymology of the word "pope", which I know the Greeks sometimes confute with "papa" - one could concievably refuse to call the pope the pope because he is not one's real spiritual father. Likewise, one might refuse to call the "Patriarch of Moscow" or "Metropolitan Laurus" by their ecclessial titles, but this would have the effect of being both confusing (to those not familiar with the civil names held by Drozdov and Laurus) and insulting to those who recognize the validity of their claims to such titles.

I agree with your argument that organizations called "World Orthodox" must be heretical or truly Orthodox, but we do have "Greek Orthodox" and "Russian Orthodox", we have Catholics, Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists, Moslems, Pagans, Wiccans, Satanists... they are all either Orthodox or Heterodox, but that doesn't mean the name is meaningless, simply that the name doesn't reflect the Orthodoxy of the group. One could argue that this creates the possibility of having a discussion including people that believe a group is Orthodox and also those people that believe a group is heterodox, since such discussion including both sides is probably impossible in a forum labeled "Heterodox Christianity of the non-Papist Eastern Variety" or something along those lines. I've settled for calling the pope Catholic, the Ayatollah a Moslem, and the Patriarchates "world Orthodox" simply because these words seem to be reasonably effective in communicating what it is that I'm referring to, in a pluralistic setting. Strictly speaking, of course, the patriarchates are not Orthodox - they do not uphold Orthodox doctrine, do not teach what has been held everywhere, at all times, and by all, and often persecute those who do. However, they call themselves Orthodox, and in order to be clear about who it is that we are speaking about and that their actual "Orthodoxy" is at stake in these discussions, "world Orthodoxy" seems to be a perfectly adequate term.

With regards to where ROCOR (L) should be discussed, if there remains any doubt, I think that could be settled by asking a bishop of the ROCOR (L) whether the ROCOR (L) is closer to the Moscow Patriarchate or to the Catacomb Church, Metropolitan Vitaly (in terms of his legacy or his present position), Metropolitan Philaret, and the New Martyrs and Confessors of Russia. Everyone in ROCOR should be asking themselves this question anyway!

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Post by Ekaterina »

It's easy enough to condemn, judge or even justify when you already have left....(why bother taking the sin on yourself then, you've made your decision)...but to stay and fight....now there is a challenge!

Katya

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Post by 尼古拉前执事 »

Ekaterina wrote:

It's easy enough to condemn, judge or even justify when you already have left....(why bother taking the sin on yourself then, you've made your decision)...but to stay and fight....now there is a challenge!

Katya

Dear Katya,

I do not believe I have taken a moment to welcome you to the cafe, so please allow me to do so now.

I think I can speak for those that have left ROCOR for the GOC, ROAC, ROCA-V, etc. when I say it is not so easy. It is very hard to admit that you see your bishops either in heresy or on that road to perdition. Leaving a synod should be a heart-wrenching thing and be painful. Something that one does not want to have to do, but does so only because he or she feels they have been forced to for the salvation of their souls. To stay in the sin of heresy is not allowed by the Fathers and Canons that guide our Chruch, rather we are called to flee from a bishop that teaches heresy. Every person's line in the sand is different, some have left earlier and some will not leave until the ink has dried on the union papers, but it is never an easy thing to do.

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Mor Ephrem
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Post by Mor Ephrem »

Deacon Nikolai wrote:

Discussions of New Calendarists, Ecumenists or the so-called "World Orthodox" jurisdictions that have sought communion with or have succumbed to the heresies of Ecumenism, Iconoclasm, Modernism, Monophysitism, Nestorianism or Sergianism..

As was asked earlier elsewhere, where are the Iconoclasts in "World Orthodoxy"?

Justin Kissel

Post by Justin Kissel »

Mor Ephrem,

I remember when this was brought up a few weeks ago. At the time, I couldn't figure it out at first, but after a while the answer that I assume is correct did come to me. You must have left before I expressed my thoughts. As worded, it does not say that people within Orthodoxy have to fall into the heresies listed, for it is enough if they merely "sought communion with" those heresies. Certainly, some Protestants are iconoclasts. Therefore, when he mentions iconoclasts, I believe that Dcn. Nikolai was speaking of those Protestants who participate in the WCC and who some Orthodox (from one perspective) have sought communion with (given all the agreed-statements and whatnot). Not saying I agree or disagree with this, that's just what comes to mind.

As a sidenote, as I have mentioned on OC.net one time, the term "world Orthodoxy" need not always be used in a derogatory manner. I have OCA magazines/periodicals from the 1960's which use the term, and I have seen it used as a self-identification elsewhere as well (there was even a book that had that in the title--though I don't recall who wrote it at the moment).

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