Is ROCiE a schism? Is Met Vitaly mentally capable to lead?

[Joshua F]

what do the psycholosgists know about what it takes to have the responsibilities of a first hierarch?

Well, you're the one who accused him of amnesia and brought in psychological terms - but then again, I'm not sure where you're getting that from, since that was definitely not anything in the psychologists reports. What do you know about Metropolitan Vitaly? Is everything you know from the lips of Laurus? If so, how do you know you are getting the whole story? Just wondering.

If you were a father with children, would you run out of the house and leave your children to burn to death? If a priest feels so strongly about the faith and the right thing to do...then why abandon all his spiritual children...those who have gone to him with complete trust and confessed their inner most sins.

This is pretty much the feeling I have about clergy I know that went with Laurus and who refused to do anything when all this was happening and Metropolitan Vitaly was being tugged around to psych evaluations and forced into automobiles as though he were the property of Synod. There are two sides to this story. Have you approached Bishop Sergei and talked with him about these things? You're asking us why, but have you asked him why, and given him a chance to respond? Don't answer me, it's none of my business, and I'm not part of the Montreal community, but Vladika Sergei hasn't gone anywhere, he's still in Montreal is he not?

If we are going to have this discussion, we have to keep a level head, I'll certainly admit that - but it cuts both ways. I'll try to refrain from perjorative language, but I respectfully request that other participants do likewise. This could be my Canadian background though, I hear Slavic people are known to enjoy a good shouting match

[Katina]

Dear Joasia, you state:

If you were a father with children, would you run out of the house and leave your children to burn to death? If a priest feels so strongly about the faith and the right thing to do...then why abandon all his spiritual children...those who have gone to him with complete trust and confessed their inner most sins.

Did he abandon you? It sounds to me as if he tried to get you out of the burning house but you persisted in staying in the burning house - and there is not much he can do in that situation. I think your own analogy of a burning house sums up the situation. If you know your house is burning and cannot be saved: GET OUT while you can save what you can!

Truthfully, I think that you should be speaking to him and not me. My limited experience of Bp. Sergei is that he is a very open and welcoming person. Go talk to him.

I posted mainly to set the record straight on Met. Vitaly. It is a grave situation when falsehoods are being spread. I know the situation well enough to have something to say about it and wish to let people know the truth.

I pray that the truth prevail in the end and that those who remain in the Laurus group bring your hierarchs to task to have them tell the truth both about Met. Vitaly and about the MP. If you find that this is impossible to do, then know that you will be welcomed with open arms by Met. Vitaly and those loyal to the royal path of ROCOR.

Joyous feast of the Epiphany to all.

[joasia]

what do the psycholosgists know about what it takes to have the responsibilities of a first hierarch?

I was referring to non-Orthodox laymen assessing the mental health of a person who performs a duty that is not something they may know about, in comparison to worldly duties.

Well, you're the one who accused him of amnesia

When did I do that? But, that is a good point to bring up. Exactly when is a hierarch considered inable to continue to perform his duties? It doesn't keep him from being a Vladika. But, one tends to worry about him when he sees people he's know since they were born and doesn't recognize them for a good 5 minutes. And these are people he knew on a regular basis, not every so many years.

What do you know about Metropolitan Vitaly?

The above I mentioned was from personal experience. I visited him, in Mansonville, with a couple of friends in Dec. of the year he left. And he could not recognize them. Maybe it was the medication he was taking. But, they know him better from being his spiritual children and they were worried about his mental capacity.

Is everything you know from the lips of Laurus?

My knowledge is far from that. As I've mentioned in previous posts here and others, I am none too happy about the way the hierarchy are handling things. I'm pretty sure everybody knows my view on it, by now. Just because I don't agree with your group, I am labelled with Metropolitan Laurus? You don't even know me and then you attack me? What happened to your comment about keeping things in a proper perspective?

If so, how do you know you are getting the whole story?

How do YOU know you are getting the whole story?

This is pretty much the feeling I have about clergy I know that went with Laurus and who refused to do anything when all this was happening and Metropolitan Vitaly was being tugged around to psych evaluations and forced into automobiles as though he were the property of Synod.

I agree. The way Vladika was treated was dispictable. I don't like the way things are being run, all around, but it doesn't make ROCiE right. I'm sick and tired of all these confusions. There are also hidden sides of the stories. We, as laymen, don't get the full story, ya know.

You're asking us why, but have you asked him why, and given him a chance to respond?

One of the friends I went with did go visit him. She got a very negative response from him and that is why I am making this statement. Believe me, we've asked. He doesn't want to have anything to do with us. And he's know her for many years. I've just been around for a few years. Like I said, I am talking about a very personal issue, so I would think that you and Katina would respect that. It's not an issue of debate...it's not a subject about theology. It's my own personal view. If you were abondoned by your father, would I argue with you about it...no. I wouldn't have any right to. Do you know what I mean?

Did he abandon you? It sounds to me as if he tried to get you out of the burning house but you persisted in staying in the burning house - and there is not much he can do in that situation. I think your own analogy of a burning house sums up the situation.

Actually, the analogy was based on his view of the situation. And no, he did not try to get us out. He came into church one Sunday and heard that Vl. Michael was present. He turned around and said he couldn't stay and left. This is what happened the day that FR. Sergei left St. Nicholas. He never "tried" to get me out. He never called his spiritual children to warn us(of what he thought was a burning house).

If you know your house is burning and cannot be saved: GET OUT while you can save what you can!

I believe in standing strong and fighting. The enemies are everywhere and within. If we high-tail it out of there, then we are just plain cowards and leaving a precious treasure to be destroyed by the evil one. This is Holy Ground, we are talking about. There is nothing wrong with protecting Holy Ground. And I'm not talking about the Synod...I'm talking about the actual site where Holy Communion is served. In Greece, they have a great reverence for the site of a church or even one that is not there anymore. They still make the sign of the Cross when they pass a site where a church USED TO be. That is how sacred it is. I don't expect anyone to understand what I'm saying. But, I'm not making this up.

I shared my feelings and that's all it was...sharing. I do not want to be constantly attacked for how I feel about a personal issue.

[尼古拉前执事]

I thought bishops and priests were suppose to stand and fight for the truth and defend their holy ground. Not run away and start up another group.

Of course, the MP would say ROCOR did this. It is everyone's job to make sure they are not in communion with heresy, clergy, monastics and laymen alike.

[尼古拉前执事]

You don't even know me and then you attack me? What happened to your comment about keeping things in a proper perspective?

...

I shared my feelings and that's all it was...sharing. I do not want to be constantly attacked for how I feel about a personal issue.

Joasia/Joanna, people have complained that you do the same thing jumping on people and attacking without knowing them or what they are talking about (their experiences), so I hope your feeling attacked here will cause you to do some introspection and redouble your own efforts not to do this to others.

[Katina]

But, one tends to worry about him when he sees people he's know since they were born and doesn't recognize them for a good 5 minutes. And these are people he knew on a regular basis, not every so many years.
...

I shared my feelings and that's all it was...sharing. I do not want to be constantly attacked for how I feel about a personal issue.

Note, however, that even though he did not immediately recognize these people, it eventually came back to him. This means the memory is there, but he has a hard time getting to it. I have seen what you described to be the case in many circumstances but he does know certain people without hesitation.

Obviously he doesn't have all the mental ability as he did years ago, not many people near 95 years old do. I don't think that is what is under debate by anybody. Since his mental capacity was very great in his younger years, I think that it is hard to see him much slowed down in comparison.

What is under debate, however, is:

1. how much he is capable of expressing his own will
   and
2. whether he can preside appropriately over the affairs of the church.
   and
3. who rightly represents the St. Job of Pochaev Brotherhood of Montreal.

and it is in these questions that the Laurus group has spread falsehoods.

Please forgive me if you felt that I was attacking you. It was not my intention.

[Joshua F]

I had no intention of attacking anyone. I apologize if I came across that way; I engage in a lot of blunt debate daily in my academic work and understand that sometimes I come across pretty rough. The reason I originally responded was I felt ROCiE being called a schism and me being called fanatical and metropolitan Vitaly being called amnesiac was all a bit much, but perhaps I read too much into the language you were using. I'll leave off posting here for a bit - too much work to do at the moment.