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If you were participating in the formation of an Orthodox community, what type of community would it be?

1) Reclusive, Amish-like, no modern conveniences, self-sufficient, agriculturally based, etc.

3
7%

2) Semi-reclusive, both farming & business, some modern conveniences, etc.

13
28%

3) Quiet (but not reclusive), normal modern conveniences, normal secular jobs permitted, etc.

15
33%

4) Missionary, all the normal modern conveniences, secular jobs permitted, etc.

9
20%

5) You are all crazy, this idea is a bad one.

2
4%

6) While the idea is workable, I couldn't possibly be involved.

4
9%
 
Total votes: 46

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Liudmilla
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Joined: Thu 31 October 2002 1:56 pm

Post by Liudmilla »

METHODIUS

You seek the impossible. Living in the middle of no where will not solve your problem regarding young women.....a closed monastary might...but not an isolated community. Your struggle with the "impure" thoughts will only get transfered to what ever is around you in the "middle of no where". If you look at many of the desert fathers you will find that their temptations increased rather than decreased when they went into the wilds. You answer lays within yourself and your struggle to control you thoughts.

Personally I would rather attempt a community such as been discussed of late rather than the extremist setting of earlier discussions. I gather many of you are in your early twenties so you did not witness the problems of extremist isolationist religious groups. You want a community to practice your belief with like people....you don't want one that will create greater hardship and danger to your souls....and I see that in some of the ideas presented here. Let your God given common sense guide you to your goal and not a prideful one. For I see some danger of that too. This an achievable goal, if planned with care and common sense.

A lot of you bring up the fact that you need a priest to "guide" you and the Community. I restate my earlier comment that this is not a good idea. As part of a council, perhaps, but as leader, I still feel that this opens everyone up to even greater danger...for both priest and individual. They are men like the rest of us, equally flawed. They don't have all the answers. Sometimes in our fervor to accomplish what we want we forget to listen for the voice of God guiding us.

I also, note with all this discussion that no priest has posted any comments regarding their take on this idea....I know that a few lurk here ..... and it makes me wonder what they think.

David1
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Posts: 21
Joined: Thu 17 April 2003 9:47 am

Post by David1 »

Methodius,

I too think a priest is important, but while the community is building I think reader services augmented with a monthly liturgy would suffice for the first year. It would be difficult to convince a bishop to assign a priest to such a small effort when there are so many mission out there. I think perhaps a better way would be to have one of the members of the community seek ordination.

Depending on the region the middle of nowhere is a variable term. While in Montana or British Columbia you can be hundreds of miles from a city of a reasonable size, in other areas a remote location would be outside of city limits. You can find these areas in the NE, SE, NW, or SW United States and in every province in Canada. Here are some areas I've researched and think would be suitable for an Orthodox community:

Southern Missouri - Distinct four season climate. Equidistant to many areas of the US would be an asset for visitors and family. One secular community there(Dancing Rabbit, link above) is in a program with the Bureau of Land Management where they leave a large percentage of fields to lie fallow for 10 years to encourage native plant growth. In exchange for this they were able to buy twice the amount of land they thought they would. In 10 years the rest of the land will be ready to use and the community will have expanded by that time hopefully.

Eastern Pennsylvania - Good climate, but not as long a growing season as further south. Many Orthodox in this area. Also have many Amish and Bruderhof for friendly relations and practical help perhaps.

Western NC/SC - This is the area I reside in, so I may be a bit biased. But this area has a very long growing season(which can be made year round by use of cold frames)and has several Orthodox parishes of varying jurisdictions nearby. The furtherest you would from civilization would be 1-2 hours away from a small city.

Southwest British Columbia - Due to its proximity to the Pacific Ocean this area has the same growing season as a thousand miles south. Climate is like Seattle or London, perpetually damp but not always rainy. Once you get outside of Vancouver, land is very very cheap.

Of course, there are many other good areas out there. These are just the few I researched when I was serious about starting a community four years ago. I think the best combination for a community is to be around half an hour to an hour away from a medium sized town that would have a hospital, airport, and other things that would be useful especially if you wanted to have many visitors.

Liudmilla,

You make very good points. I agree that having a priest as the guide may not be the best idea. Surely, the priest would be in charge of all things spiritual, but for day-to-day decision making there should be a method that would involve all the members of such a community. As long as the community remains small(25 adults and under) I think a simple two thirds majority vote would work. One initial problem that I've seen with many groups who try to start such communities is how to legally set up the land. Subdivide the land into equal parcels for those who pay upfront and have those people sell divide and sell portions of their parcels as more people want to move there? Set up the land as a LLP or give it to the diocese and have the members lease their portion of land used? A combination of the two? There are many options here and it is hard to decide on one without losing a member or two after the hard decision is made.

Also, I don't think at this point we should try to become just like the Amish. There will be enough problems early on without the annoyance of living without modern technology, for some for the first time. Having said this, I think that homes should be built to adapt to non-electric conditions(ie tall ceilings with vents at the top for hot climates, facing most of the windows south to use passive solar heating and lighting, etc) and later on many might wish to do without modern technology. But I don't feel it is a choice to be made right away. I do think that using renewable energy sources(solar, wind, hydroelectric) is an admiriable goal to make, and the further the community is from the power grid the cheaper it is to use these sources.

Neo Tobiah
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Posts: 4
Joined: Fri 18 April 2003 11:08 am

Post by Neo Tobiah »

I have a question and please forgive me if the answer to this is obvious or has already been discussed. Who will be staying at this place? What I am trying to ask is, is this just for ROCOR and those in communion with them? Is it for other jurisdictions as well, like OCA and Antiochians? How about those who are not in the Church, are they allowed to live there, or at least stay for a while possibly considering conversion?

Also, what group would this be with? It seems like it would be ROCOR, but what if someone from another jurisdiction, like Serbian, wanted to join community but not necessarily become ROCOR? Same thing with OCA and Antiochians and Greeks. Do we as individuals have to be in one jurisdiction while there?

Also, if different jurisdictional divisions are allowed, I would like to know how breaks in communion on a church wide level will be handled at the community? If ROCOR breaks communion with Serbians and there are people originally of Serbian Churches, will the Serbians have to leave or switch to ROCOR?

What if a Priest is willing to come and his bishop and the ROCOR bishop is willing to let him come, but he is not ROCOR. Maybe he is from Serbian Church or Jerusalem. He would not be willing to become ROCOR, so would you accept him as priest?

One last thing, do many of you have experience with missions? There seems to be an undue emphasis on having a priest there. Are you aware that the overwhelming majority of the missions in the world do not have priests? Isn't it a bit selfish for us to fight for a Priest when we live in America and have wealths of information and experience available to us, and dozens of priests within a few hours drive; while people in Africa and Asia and other places, who have had little exposure to Orthodoxy and have little information on it and have experienced it only narrowly, are deprived of a Priest? Who really needs a Priest more? I would agree with what someone said earlier, I think you should try to do reader services, and attend liturgy elsewhere every once in a while, and eventually try to get the bishop to ordain one of the members of the community, first to deacon, then to priest.

Logos
Member
Posts: 266
Joined: Tue 17 December 2002 11:31 am

Post by Logos »

LIUDMILLA wrote:

METHODIUS

You seek the impossible. Living in the middle of no where will not solve your problem regarding young women.....a closed monastary might...but not an isolated community. Your struggle with the "impure" thoughts will only get transfered to what ever is around you in the "middle of no where". If you look at many of the desert fathers you will find that their temptations increased rather than decreased when they went into the wilds. You answer lays within yourself and your struggle to control you thoughts.

While I agree with you on your last point, it does not aide one's spiritual struggle to see immodestly dressed young woman. One cannot go out of their house without encountering a woman who is wearing something revealing. It gets worse in the summertime. We live in a very hedonistic world, and quite frankly, Methodius makes valid points here. The reason why the temptations increased when the desert fathers when to the wilderness was because Satan did not like them wanting and choosing to love and serve God. They were doing things for the sake Christ and his kingdom, in order to bring themselves into communion with God. Satan deplores this, and hence it is why their temptations increased.

Julianna

I seem to offend, however;

Post by Julianna »

His Grace Bishop Gregory came to Colorado with only $20 on his person. He came to found a skete. He found land and was able to build one based on the generosity of others. If you wish to do it and it it good for your spirit, God shall provide. Be meek, be humble and ask Him to guide you and you will succeed with hard work. Be reasonable and be of God and do not become Luddites.

I am sure if you ask him, His Grace, having gone through this, can provide advice and perhaps a priest. May God bless your plans and may you follow his ways every day in every way.

Justin Kissel

Post by Justin Kissel »

So, for those who are still interested, I'll again ask, will you be willing to form a small mission if there is no priest? And if so, what type of time frame are we looking at?

OKBasil
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Posts: 8
Joined: Tue 6 May 2003 2:15 am

I'm in.

Post by OKBasil »

I am excited by the interest in creating an Orthodox community displayed by so many . . . I am new to this site and this discussion, but have thought about living in the type of community you are describing a great deal lately.

I believe this is very do-able, especially now with interest rates being the lowest since the 1960's. I was looking at properties in northeast Oklahoma and was amazed at how cheap real estate is right now.

I am confident many traditionalist Orthodox Christians would be drawn to a community that would support their faith. Rather than having none of the modern conveniences, perhaps there could be a common house with a shared kitchen and other facilities which would need electricity and the other homes could be simpler. I don't think the entire Amish-style existence would be necessary to fulfill my ideal, but we could do without many modern things like TV, stereos, etc.

I would seriously consider relocating my family if a good plan for a community was developed. Products could be made (my wife for one is skilled at sewing), part-time work done on the side while things were coming together, etc.

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