is this really what CHRIST wanted?

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OrthodoxyOrDeath

Post by OrthodoxyOrDeath »

Milla,

I think the answer to your question may lay in what you have rested certain assumptions.

First you must find out if your bishop or any of the bishop he is in communion with are heretics. Knowing this, as I mentioned in my last post, will tell you if they have already compromised the fundemental aspect of our faith - the Truth!

I don't know anything about you but would only say that it is first important to have a true confessing bishop who only commemorates other true confessing bishops. Only on this can we begin to build our spiritual house.

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Seraphim Reeves
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Post by Seraphim Reeves »

Romiosini,

That's the Christian teaching, to challenge everyone with certain proof.

But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: (1st Peter 3:15)

Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. (Isaiah 1:18 )

Jesus said unto him, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind."

Orthodoxy is not pietism or fideism - it has a claim on truth, and that truth is not many contradictory things. Ecumenism poses a challenge to this - thus there is nothing to be done but refute this. However, if this is really just the ramblings of fanatics, then it should be the Ecumenists/"Orthodox" who do the work of refuting them, which of course never happens.

I don't need to pretend or act like a Theologian to have Faith, or I need to get slandering proof by using the Fathers' writings.

Strictly speaking, the phenomenon of "academic theology" is a pragmatic rather than particularly traditional element in Orthodoxy. Unfortunately, people's minds are so affected by the fashions of the day, that this is what they imagine the "theologian" to primarily be - essentially, a Christian philosopher.

Theology (Theo- God, "logos"- words/rational... so one who has words and reasonings about God) strictly speaking is the enterprise of every true Christian, and one's penetration into it would go hand in hand with one's sanctity. To be a "theologian" in the authentic sense (the way the Fathers are) is the same as being a "good Christian" and a "mystic" (mysticism in Orthodoxy not being the unique spirituality of the few, but simply the depths of the faith of the many). Academic theology is good, only in so far as (when not indulged in by living Fathers) it repeats what genuine Fathers understood and put into words.

The idea that the common man, is to be ignorant but pious ("real theology" being the realm solely of the clergy), is not genuinely Orthodox, but the result of imported western clericalism and sins of the Orthodox people. This indifference is what lets people be led estray, and is why the Ecumenists have made such a clean sweep - as long as people have their smells and bells, and the occassional cultural festival and language school on Sunday for their kids, they pretty much could care less about such "triffles" as dogma.

Have you noticed here, the majority do not belong to your traditionalist diocese?

Have you noticed that the majority (of mankind) make no pretenses about not worshipping the Holy Trinity?

The best example is when the "Genuine" Orthodox Church was founded and Chrysostom was made first hierarch. All of a sudden some of them has some personal issues with eachother and Matthew breaks away and becomes also Archbishop of Athens and of all Greece. Making parallel archdioceses, and more parallel problems.

Well, the issues that divided these two camps have been for the most part resolved. Also I don't think calling it a "personal issue" was really correct - basically, the two key figures involved had differing interpretations (for a time) as to the significance of the calendar change. It surprises a lot of people to realize that eventually Metropolitan Chrysostmos came around to Bp.Matthew's view.

Such differences, and the fall out is unfortunate - but this is not unprecedented, it's happened before - where all Orthodox parties in the midst of the upheavels of powerful heresy, have found themselves divided for a time. Ecumenism is probably one of the most insidious, chimeric heresies ever - that it's something people of faith have been navigating through with some difficulty for several decades now shouldn't be a shock. However, I personally believe the sifting of the wheat and tares is pretty much complete in this situation - there really is no room left in the ecumenist schism for people who have real, informed doubts about where their churches are really at.

And from those two, they kept on breaking, and we have today in Greece, 6 synods who claim to believe in the same thing, preaching the truth, but do not aknowledge eachother because of their supreme pride of man that they have.

Not surprising, if still unfortunate - as OOD pointed out on another thread, during the Arian crisis in Antioch alone there were four seperate parties (who did not have communion with one another) but who eventually reconciled. That is what happen when people flee from a burning house - things get confused, people get separated, and once you're out of the building you have to catch your breath and make sense of the situation...and then you have human frailty, ignorance, and sin. It's all a potent combination, bound to cause mischief.

You claimed that I was an ecumenist. But what really takes for a person to be called Ecumenist? Have I gone praying with a Heretic, have I paid attention to non-Orthodox?

Well, the Ecumenical Patriarch has, does, etc. So do most of the leaders of the various "local churches." This is encouraged at the grass roots in local events. Concelebrations occur. The Patriarch of Antioch has not only acknowledged the grace of the Monophysite sacraments, but they (the Antiochians and Monophysites) have a joint accord which is materially a unia - including the surrendering of flocks to one another under certain circumstances, offering sacraments to each other's congregations as a matter of course, mixed marriages without any special dispensation, "canonical" clergy transfers between each other, etc. Please, keep in mind that Monophysitism and Monothelitism (which even most of the less severe modern Monophysites are guilty of subscribing to - Monothelitism being the teaching that Christ has "one will") are not simply wrong, materially being at odds with the teachings of the Church: no, they were explicitly condemned by Ecumenical Councils, as were all who subscribed to these ideas.

My point? These things characterize the heirarchy of the so called "canonical churches", and much of the thinking of those clergy and laity further on down the rungs. But what characterizes these heirarchies even more so, and removes them of any defense, is that even if you do not think some of them hold these ideas (or particularly like them) they do absolutely nothing of consequence to correct them, or at least remove themselves from them. The strongest "rebukes" have come from the Jerusalem Patriarchate - yet the fact of the matter is, it is basically just some rather polite complaining on their part. The Antiochians can still go there and be communed, the JP goes to the same pan-Orthodox style gatherings, etc. And this is the most extreme rebuke you'll find in "official", "canonical" Orthodoxy.

Basically, while you say you don't personally hold these views or care for these practices, in the end your heirarchs do - and if they don't, like you, they have no problem basically winking at it all.

Traditionalists have Grace and non else does, and they have the Grace to judge.

No, the Orthodox Church has mysteriological/sacramental grace, and no one else.

As "judgement", this is really simple discernment, which we all have to do in every day life - you don't need to go deep into someone's most subterranian motives and thought life to know that what they say and do is not in line with what the Church teaches. If such were not possible, it'd mean either humans were irrational beasts incapable of grasping truth, and/or that St.Paul's exhortation to vigilance would be imposible...

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:8)

Seraphim

Miriam
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Post by Miriam »

OOD:

I acknowledge your point, however, it presupposed an understanding of who is canonical and who isn't. If you are a simple person struggling to do what is right, it is difficult to make the kind of authoritative judgement your point requires. Not everyone is as grounded in the patristics as some of the members here on this forum. So the question becomes, "how do you know who's canonical?" Many are left to struggle with this question and the pressures to "obey" their bishops. Again, that stricture to follow your pastor, your "shepherd". You are left with ...do you follow the herd? Taking up a study of the patristics in order to understand is years of effort, what do you do in the mean time? especially if you have family? So do you follow the herd?

Miriam

OrthodoxyOrDeath

Post by OrthodoxyOrDeath »

Mariam,

Having had similiar difficulties myself, I do understand your problem and sympathize with you very much.

It seems from my own experience that the answer comes slowly, the most important thing is to follow your conscience; but not only that, but to educate your conscience.

If you believe you have an Orthodox Bishop, you should follow him and always pray for him. But if following your bishop stirs your conscience, don't be at all afraid to learn if he is right or if he is wrong. Carefully make inquiries and learn the answers in the faith. It is not at all outside the limits of your responsibility to yourself and the Church to place yourself in opposition to error and unorthodox practice. But one also has to be careful to not make the cure worse than the disease. And remember, bishops are not rulers like some would have it today, they are shepherds; and they are not shepherds treading their own individual paths, but are only such insofar as they are in the Church and of the Church, submitting to the Will of God. As Christ said, you are as important to Him as any. A bishop is not more important than you, just much more burdened with the responsibility of the Church.

Having said all of this, today people think it is their perogitive to leave there priest or bishop and attend other churches whenever they feel like it. But this is not the Orthodox way. Your spiritual father is the person who knows you and has set a path for you that encourages your spiritual growth according to your strengths. Since one does not take their spiritual growth lightly, one just cannot hop around never applying themselves. The only occasion (for the most part) there is to leave your priest or bishop is heresy, whether they preach it or they are in communion with a bishop who does. And then it is not a choice, you MUST leave. Outside of that, unless one feels spiritually threatened, you should always obtain a blessing from a priest to attend another church, even once, and a release to leave their local parish for another one.

But I will tell you, not as a matter of my opinion, that if you are in a new-calendarist church your bishops are certainly in communion with heretics if they are not heretics themselves.

In conversation and in general thought, it is very easy to think the only heretics in new-calendarism are a few bishops. This could not be further from the truth. Around me I know "priests", or have credibly been told of priests, who do not believe in some of the most basic tenents of the faith written in the Creed; priests and bishops who are depraved syncretists (aka ecumenists), and even priests who have given up completley in the Mystery of Confession.

Again Mariam, this is not my opinion, it is the opinion of the Church. If you are having problems in other areas and you are in one of these churches, this is why. RUN! RUN! And don't run like, let's meet on Wednesday and do a little jogging, run like your house is on fire!

John Haluska
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Post by John Haluska »

Perhaps this small portion, of the subject Encyclical, will state more clearly exactly what the Fathers of the Orthodox Church have professed with respect to the Orthodox Church:

QUOTE:

Encyclical of the Eastern Patriarchs, 1848

A Reply to the Epistle of Pope Pius IX, "to the Easterns"

To All the Bishops Everywhere, Beloved in the Holy Ghost, Our Venerable, Most Dear Brethren; and to their Most Pious Clergy; and to All the Genuine Orthodox Sons of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church: Brotherly Salutation in the Holy Spirit, and Every Good From God, and Salvation.

Code: Select all

 The holy, evangelical and divine Gospel of Salvation should be set forth by all in its original simplicity, and should evermore be believed in its unadulterated purity, even the same as it was revealed to His holy Apostles by our Savior, who for this very cause, descending from the bosom of God the Father, made Himself of no reputation and took upon Him the form of a servant (Phil. ii. 7); even the same, also, as those Apostles, who were ear and eye witnesses, sounded it forth, like clear-toned trumpets, to all that are under the sun (for their sound is gone out into all lands, and their words into the ends of the world); and, last of all, the very same as the many great and glorious Fathers of the Catholic Church in all parts of the earth, who heard those Apostolic voices, both by their synodical and their individual teachings handed it down to all everywhere, and even unto us. But the Prince of Evil, that spiritual enemy of man's salvation, as formerly in Eden, craftily assuming the pretext of profitable counsel, he made man to become a transgressor of the divinely-spoken command. So in the spiritual Eden, the Church of God, he has from time to time beguiled many; and, mixing the deleterious drugs of heresy with the clear streams of orthodox doctrine, gives of the potion to drink to many of the innocent who live unguardedly, not giving earnest heed to the things they have heard (Heb. ii. 10), and to what they have been told by their fathers (Deut. xxxii. 7), in accordance with the Gospel and in agreement with the ancient Doctors; and who, imagining that the preached and written Word of the LORD and the perpetual witness of His Church are not sufficient for their souls' salvation, impiously seek out novelties, as we change the fashion of our garments, embracing a counterfeit of the evangelical doctrine.

Hence have arisen manifold and monstrous heresies, which the Catholic Church, even from her infancy, taking unto her the whole armor of God, and assuming the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God (Eph. vi. 13-17,) has been compelled to combat. She has triumphed over all unto this day, and she will triumph forever, being manifested as mightier and more illustrious after each struggle.

Of these heresies, some already have entirely failed, some are in decay, some have wasted away, some yet flourish in a greater or less degree vigorous until the time of their return to the Faith, while others are reproduced to run their course from their birth to their destruction. For being the miserable cogitations and devices of miserable men, both one and the other, struck with the thunderbolt of the anathema of the seven Ecumenical Councils, shall vanish away, though they may last a thousand years; for the orthodoxy of the Catholic and Apostolic Church, by the living Word of God, alone endures for ever, according to the infallible promise of the LORD: the gates of hell shall not prevail against it (Matt. xviii. 18). Certainly, the mouths of ungodly and heretical men, however bold, however plausible and fair-speaking, however smooth they may be, will not prevail against the orthodox doctrine winning, its way silently and without noise. But, wherefore doth the way of the wicked prosper? (Jer. xii. 1.) Why are the ungodly exalted and lifted up as the cedars of Lebanon (Ps. xxxvii. 35), to defile the peaceful worship of God? The reason of this is mysterious, and the Church, though daily praying that this cross, this messenger of Satan, may depart from her, ever hears from the Lord: My grace is sufficient for thee, my strength is made perfect in weakness (2. Cor. xii. 9). Wherefore she gladly glories in her infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon her, and that they which are approved may be made manifest (1. Cor. x. 19).

Code: Select all

For our faith, brethren, is not of men nor by man, but by revelation of Jesus Christ, which the divine Apostles preached, the holy Ecumenical Councils confirmed, the greatest and wisest teachers of the world handed down in succession, and the shed blood of the holy martyrs ratified. Let us hold fast to the confession which we have received unadulterated from such men, turning away from every novelty as a suggestion of the devil. He that accepts a novelty reproaches with deficiency the preached Orthodox Faith. But that Faith has long ago been sealed in completeness, not to admit of diminution or increase, or any change whatever; and he who dares to do, or advise, or think of such a thing has already denied the faith of Christ, has already of his own accord been struck with an eternal anathema, for blaspheming the Holy Ghost as not having spoken fully in the Scriptures and through the Ecumenical Councils. This fearful anathema, brethren and sons beloved in Christ, we do not pronounce today, but our Savior first pronounced it (Matt. xii. 32): Whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. St. Paul pronounced the same anathema (Gal. i. 6): I marvel that ye are so soon removed from Him that called you into the grace of Christ, unto another Gospel: which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the Gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you, than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. This same anathema the Seven Ecumenical Councils and the whole choir of God-serving fathers pronounced. All, therefore, innovating, either by heresy or schism, have voluntarily clothed themselves, according to the Psalm (cix. 18), ("with a curse as with a garment,") whether they be Popes, or Patriarchs, or Clergy, or Laity; nay, if any one, though an angel from heaven, preach any other Gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. Thus our wise fathers, obedient to the soul-saving words of St. Paul, were established firm and steadfast in the faith handed down unbrokenly to them, and preserved it unchanged and uncontaminate in the midst of so many heresies, and have delivered it to us pure and undefiled, as it came pure from the mouth of the first servants of the Word. Let us, too, thus wise, transmit it, pure as we have received it, to coming generations, altering nothing, that they may be, as we are, full of confidence, and with nothing to be ashamed of when speaking of the faith of their forefathers.

Therefore, brethren, and sons beloved in the LORD, having purified your souls in obeying the truth (1 Pet. i. 22), let us give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. (Heb. ii. 1.) The faith and confession we have received is not one to be ashamed of, being taught in the Gospel from the mouth of our LORD, witnessed by the holy Apostles, by the seven sacred Ecumenical Councils, preached throughout the world, witnessed to by its very enemies, who, before they apostatized from orthodoxy to heresies, themselves held this same faith, or at least their fathers and fathers' fathers thus held it. It is witnessed to by continuous history, as triumphing over all the heresies which have persecuted or now persecute it, as ye see even to this day. The succession of our holy divine fathers and predecessors beginning from the Apostles, and those whom the Apostles appointed their successors, to this day, forming one unbroken chain, and joining hand to hand, keep fast the sacred inclosure of which the door is Christ, in which all the orthodox Flock is fed in the fertile pastures of the mystical Eden, and not in the pathless and rugged wilderness, as his Holiness supposes (p. 7.1.12). Our Church holds the infallible and genuine deposit of the Holy Scriptures, of the Old Testament a true and perfect version, of the New the divine original itself. The rites of the sacred Mysteries, and especially those of the divine Liturgy, are the same glorious and heartquickening rites, handed down from the Apostles. No nation, no Christian communion, can boast of such Liturgies as those of James, Basil, Chrysostom. The august Ecumenical Councils, those seven pillars of the house of Wisdom, were organized in it and among us. This, our Church, holds the originals of their sacred definitions. The Chief Pastors in it, and the honorable Presbytery, and the monastic Order, preserve the primitive and pure dignity of the first ages of Christianity, in opinions, in polity, and even in the simplicity of their vestments. Yes! Verily, "grievous wolves" have constantly attacked this holy fold, and are attacking it now, as we see for ourselves, according to the prediction of the Apostle, which shows that the true lambs of the great Shepherd are folded in it; but that Church has sung and shall sing forever: " They compassed me about; yea, they compassed me about: but in the name of the Lord I will destroy them (Ps. cxviii. l1). Let us add one reflection, a painful one indeed, but useful in order to manifest and confirm the truth of our words: —All Christian nations whatsoever that are today seen calling upon the Name of Christ (not excepting either the West generally, or Rome herself, as we prove by the catalogue of her earliest Popes), were taught the true faith in Christ by our holy predecessors and fathers; and yet afterwards deceitful men, many of whom were shepherds, and chief shepherds too, of those nations, by wretched sophistries and heretical opinions dared to defile, alas! the orthodoxy of those nations, as veracious history informs us, and as St. Paul predicted.

Therefore, brethren, and ye our spiritual children, we acknowledge how great the favor and grace which God has bestowed upon our Orthodox Faith, and on His One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, which, like a mother who is unsuspected of her husband, nourishes us as children of whom she is not ashamed, and who are excusable in our high-toned boldness concerning the hope that is in us. But what shall we sinners render to the LORD for all that He hath bestowed upon us? Our bounteous LORD and God, who hath redeemed us by his own Blood, requires nothing else of us but the devotion of our whole soul and heart to the blameless, holy faith of our fathers, and love and affection to the Orthodox Church, which has regenerated us not with a novel sprinkling, but with the divine washing of Apostolic Baptism. She it is that nourishes us, according to the eternal covenant of our Savior, with His own precious Body, and abundantly, as a true Mother, gives us to drink of that precious Blood poured out for us and for the salvation of the world. Let us then encompass her in spirit, as the young their parent bird, wherever on earth we find ourselves, in the north or south, or east, or west. Let us fix our eyes and thoughts upon her divine countenance and her most glorious beauty. Let us take hold with both our hands on her shining robe which the Bridegroom, "altogether lovely," has with His own undefiled hands thrown around her, when He redeemed her from the bondage of error, and adorned her as an eternal Bride for Himself. Let us feel in our own souls the mutual grief of the children-loving mother and the mother-loving children, when it is seen that men of wolfish minds and making gain of souls are zealous in plotting how they may lead her captive, or tear the lambs from their mothers. Let us, Clergy as well as Laity, cherish this feeling most intensely now, when the unseen adversary of our salvation, combining his fraudful arts (p. xi. 1. 2-25), employs such powerful instrumentalities, and walketh about everywhere, as saith St. Peter, seeking whom he may devour; and when in this way, in which we walk peacefully and innocently, he sets his deceitful snares.

Now, the God of peace, "that brought again from the dead that great Shepherd of the sheep," "He that keepeth Israel," who "shall neither slumber nor sleep," "keep your hearts and minds," "and direct your ways to every good work."

Peace and joy be with you in the LORD.

May, 1848, Indiction 6.

  • ANTHIMOS, by the Mercy of God, Archbishop of Constantinople, new Rome, and Ecumenical Patriarch, a beloved brother in Christ our God, and suppliant.
  • HIEROTHEUS, by the Mercy of God, Patriarch of Alexandria and of all Egypt, a beloved brother in Christ our God, and suppliant.
  • METHODIOS, by the Mercy of God, Patriarch of the great City of God, Antioch, and of all Anatolia, a beloved brother in Christ our God, and suppliant.
  • CYRIL, by the Mercy of God, Patriarch of Jerusalem and of all Palestine, a beloved brother in Christ our God, and suppliant.

The Holy Synod in Constantinople:

  • PAISIUS OF CAESAREA
  • ANTHIMUS OF EPHESUS
  • DIONYSIUS OF HERACLEA
  • JOACHIM OF CYZICUS
  • DIONYSIUS OF NICODEMIA
  • HIEROTHEUS OF CHALCEDON
  • NEOPHYTUS OF DERCI
  • GERASIMUS OF ADRIANOPLE
  • CYRIL OF NEOCAESAREA
  • THEOCLETUS OF BEREA
  • MELETIUS OF PISIDIA
  • ATHANASIUS OF SMYRNA
  • DIONYSIUS OF MELENICUS
  • PAISIUS OF SOPHIA
  • DANIEL OF LEMNOS
  • PANTELEIMON OF DEYINOPOLIS
  • JOSEPH OF ERSECIUM
  • ANTHIMUS OF BODENI

The Holy Synod in Antioch:

  • ZACHARIAS OF ARCADIA
  • METHODIOS OF EMESA
  • JOANNICIUS OF TRIPOLIS
  • ARTEMIUS OF LAODICEA

The Holy Synod in Jerusalem:

  • MELETIUS OF PETRA
  • DIONYSIUS OF BETHLEHEM
  • PHILEMON OF GAZA
  • SAMUEL OF NEAPOLIS
  • THADDEUS OF SEBASTE
  • JOANNICIUS OF PHILADELPHIA
  • HIEROTHEUS OF TABOR
    ENQUOTE

John

Miriam
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Post by Miriam »

OOD:

Thank you for you answer. I am traditionalist and old-calendar in my faith. Frankly, I never quite bought the arguements fed to me as a young person. That whole idea that we should run with the rest of the world. I LIKED being different. Besides as a kid I used to get two sets of presents....one from my mother's catholic relatives and then from my parents on Orthodox Christmas, it was great. :mrgreen: Explaining the whys to my friends was a bit more problematic, but changing to the new calendar was never an option. My current situation has me questioning a lot of the "rhetoric" used to "guide" us as children. When faced with these "teachings" family, friends and church reacted as negatively as you can get and certainly against all the teachings. What was became untruth and I had a very bad spiritual episode. Since then I have had to re-orientate all that I was taught. As I said previously, it is because of two very good spiritual fathers that I am even close to sanity.

I have certainly learned to question everything and everyone. Hense my belief that when we will stand in front of God at the end times we will discover that we screwed it all up...please excuse the French...

John:

If I read what you posted correctly, we're all in BIG trouble.

Miriam

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