The ROAC situation.

[OrthodoxyOrDeath]

Mariam,

This is exactly how I feel. My parents believe I am "cradle" Orthodox, but I believe since it was the GOA, it was more of a, to put it in military terms, a "near miss".

We will all indeed have to answer for why we chose to not be in the Church of Christ, and for those of us who are, even more fearsome, what we did with that gift.

This is why I am constantly left scratching my head each time TomS implores me to join the Roman Catholic church and the pope for some healing. Why for a moment, it appeared you even agreed with him. I for one prefer to stand with the Orthodox Holy Fathers and do not confess the Latins are part of the church. I am most confused by Tom.

[TomS]

If you seriously would like to implore anyone to "return" to your departing church, please start a thread so you can compare our faith with yours, and see first if they are even the same.

Why do you think I am not serious. I would like that!

'Cause I don't understand how our FAITH is different. But then we first have to agree on WHAT constitutes FAITH. personally, I don't think it has anything to DO with a Calendar.

I mean, I just bought a bunch of books from CTOS and so far, I don't see anything in them that I don't agree with (to a certain extent). I see nothing that says that they have a different FAITH than I do. And you know me -- I am considered a LIBERAL Orthodox.

Please start the thread and make your first post. I have to leave to fly out to Sacramento tomorrow AM, so I will not be able to respond until later tomorrow night.

But first off -- I would never tell you to go back to the GOA. I would not expect that of you. You are much more traditional than they (and me, of course ). I DID suggest ROCOR or maybe the GOC Church in Resistance.

[TomS]

This is why I am constantly left scratching my head each time TomS implores me to join the Roman Catholic church and the pope for some healing. Why for a moment, it appeared you even agreed with him. I for one prefer to stand with the Orthodox Holy Fathers and do not confess the Latins are part of the church. I am most confused by Tom.

You are kidding, right? You KNOW I am GOA!

What in the HECK are you talking about? When did I ever suggest you join the Roman Catholic Church??!!!!!????

Boy! Just say NO to the crack!

[Грешник]

Tom,

It is odd to me that you woupd speak the way that you do. A few weeks ago you were saying things totally on a different keel. You were donating Tabernacles and there was a time you were thinking of Going to Dormition Skete to "see real monasticism." So, you see my friend, you are in the same bind as we are.

You at one time believed that things were ok, and then al of a sudden your pretty picture fell and shattered on the floor. Now, you go running back (or did you ever really have the sentiments you a one time shared?) to the GOA. At the same time you were in the forefront speaking of Gregoey's jurisdiction hoping. Well, for me I gueess in your eyes it would be "my mistake" since this would be my
"first Synod", but what about Father Nikolai? Father Dionysi? All the rest. Fro them you would have to put them in the same category as Gregory because they have been in a few synods before and now you want them to go back "to a real Synod."

I posted about this before. You say that it is wrong fr the Metropolitan and that it was definitely wrong with Gregory but for others it is ok?

Hmmm
Makes me wonder if there is not a little bias here...

Juvenaly

[TomS]

Tom,

It is odd to me that you woupd speak the way that you do. A few weeks ago you were saying things totally on a different keel. You were donating Tabernacles and there was a time you were thinking of Going to Dormition Skete to "see real monasticism." So, you see my friend, you are in the same bind as we are.

AAAHHHHH!!! I've been OUTED!!!

DARN RIGHT I am pissed! Now I gotta go unpack the car! I had my AAA Maps ready and everything!

You may think that that was the way it was. But you received your info second hand, and did not hear ALL the interactions that I had with the people there.

You at one time believed that things were ok, and then al of a sudden your pretty picture fell and shattered on the floor. Now, you go running back (or did you ever really have the sentiments you a one time shared?) to the GOA.

I never had any intentions of leaving the GOA. Did I talk to Fr. Dionysis? Yes.
Did I ask for, and would I have talked to the Priest who was coming out to VA to start a new parish? Yes.

Why? 'Cause I am interested in WHY the CHURCH is so different. WHY does it need to seperate itself so much?

Anyway, just because I was interested in going out to the Skete and seeing what things were about does NOT mean that I supported everything that was going on. And my issue was that after it happened (i.e., everyone moved out to Colorado) that it would have done no good to continue to talk against it, but better to do as Nick suggested "Don't judge until you have come out and met Bp. Gregory and see what we are building and what it is about".

So, I thought that was something that I would do.

BUT -- I certainly DID NOT know the sordid history of Bp. Gregory. And the way that I work is that IF I WAS considering joining up -- it would have been AFTER I had done research on the church and the bishops.

[OrthodoxyOrDeath]

What in the HECK are you talking about? When did I ever suggest you join the Roman Catholic Church??!!!!!????

TomS,

You suggested that people should come "back" to your church, which is travelling great distances of faith. I presume you share the same faith as confessed by your heirarchs (what else can I presume) and your faith is that of the heirarch you commemorate and those people they commune and recognize.

The MP, together with all the others, have clearley confessed in writing their faith regarding the Roman Catholics. Your heirarchs have stated most clearly that they recognize in the popes church the same "profession of apostolic faith, participation in the same sacraments, above all the one priesthood celebrating the one sacrifice of Christ, the apostolic succession of bishops -- cannot be considered the exclusive property of one of our Churches" (Paragraph 13 of Balamand)

Your heirarchs said "in order to avoid conflict and rivalry [with their sister church], to jointly organize their pastoral work, to consult one another, to unite and cooperate expressing mutual respect for the authority which the Holy Spirit has given them and also to take turns in celebrating services at the common place of worship".

And they even declared a need to destroy their "outdated ecclesiology", and that "Both sides must pay particular attention to the education of future priests in the spirit of new ecclesiology in order that they should be informed of the apostolic succession of the other Church and the authenticity of its sacramental life... In this way, the dissipation of the prejudices will be helped, and the use of history in a polemical manner will be avoided".

So is it wrong for me to think you consider the "valid sacraments" of the Latins, the "mysteries of God", as effectual for healing my soul?

Please explain yourself Tom, now you are really confusing me?? Are you saying you don't share the same faith as your heirarchs, that they preach differently? If you want me to simply be in a place to smell incense then that would make more sense. Is that what this is about, smelling incense?

[TomS]

I FIGURED you were pulling something like that!

Let's discuss this whole "sister church" thing. I don't undestand why that term is such a problem? How is it NOT true?

I have a sister. We both came from the same Mother and Father.

She is not Orthodox -- but she is STILL my sister? We still STARTED from the same place.

Please explain to me why this is not the same for the Orthodox and RC Church?