Authority

[TomS]

It is all being open to the cold hard truth and then one will see the light.

Totally my opinion --

But that "light" is subjective. So do you follow a teacher or Bishop who has the same light as you. That is a slippery slope -- because unless you put yourself under that teacher completely, then you will have disagreements with him, because his "light" will never be the same as yours; we are individuals. So to truly reach your teachers "light" you must put aside your God given individuality and discernment and follow that teacher.

And then what happens if you learn that teacher is wrong? Or worse yet, you NEVER find out that teacher is wrong? Do you follow him to destruction? No.

What you do is follow the teachings of the FAITH that are generally ACCEPTED by the Orthodox Patriarchs which are in Communion. And NOT individual and schismatic churches who have seperated themselves from the REST of Orthodoxy.

But in the end -- Faith and the building of a relationship with Christ is a personal journey. Yes -- it needs the services and the sacraments of the Church to help in the achievement of that relationship. But just like the Desert Fathers who spent years in solitude - it is lonely and personal journey.

[joasia]

Lucian

It takes an extensive review of the Holy Fathers writings for the heart to understand the Orthodox confession. If you don't even trust the holy fathers who were inspired by the TRUE HOLY SPIRIT (not like the protestant misled belief of somekind of holy spirit), then there is no way for you to trust anything that was written, not even the Bible, because you will start to doubt the apostles. Did you know the Bible was only compiled in the 4th century? What did they follow before that? And many of the holy fathers that are very important to read about the guidance of the true Church, were written before the 4th century.

Those you mention who disagree with the Councils and Holy Fathers are not Orthodox, are they?

Because, logically, an Orthodox person, wouldn't have these conflicting thoughts. They know straight forward, what is Orthodox.

The theology and dogmas are clear cut. From what I'm learning, the protestants doubt everything. But, that's okay, because they ask alot of questions, they will pursue the answer and exhaust it. Then, what will be left standing, will be the truth.

The Nicene Creed is the confession (blueprint) of Christianity in all it's wholeness, that is only upheld by the Orthodox. This can help a little in clearing up which Christian denomination is true. Even the RC fall short of that with their filioque. All the other protestant denominations, also fall way away from the true Christian worship (that is only confessed by the Orthodox).

[joasia]

Lucian,

How does someone who is looking - sincerely - for the true Church and the authentic Way recognize them when he sees them?

Surely the Lord left us with some objective means of spotting the true Church from among the many pretenders to that title?

Yes...the Apostles who passed the teachings to their successors and in the 4th century, the First Ecumenical Council was convened; thereafter, the other 6 Ecumenical Councils. Everything previous to that was passed down by verbal teachings and the preserved in the writings of the holy fathers.

Patriarchs and bishops must follow these dogmas and theologies to be truely Orthodox.

That's why it's important to know what was established in faith in the Seven Ecumenical Councils, because it should still be a living reality. You said that they are documents, but what alot of protestants don't realize is that those "documents" are meant to be kept alive in our faith. And those who should reflect the living reality of those "documents", should first start off with the clergy.

Do I sound like I'm repeating myself, because I don't think you understand the point I'M making.

Within all the Orthodox divisions...the hierarchy should reflect the living faith of Orthodoxy. Hence, the debate with those so-called Orthodox hierarchy who support Ecumenism, but they twist the meaning of unity into a pretsel. Unity MUST be under one umbrella of the true living faith of Orthodoxy.

Orthodoxy means the straight dogma (of Christianity).

P.S. Yes, I did read the Seven Ecumenical Councils, but I lent the book to a friend.

[joasia]

Lucian,

But what we are really saying is that our arguments are better than their arguments.

And what that means is that each individual must be convinced by a set of propositions and decide for him/herself.

So, no matter what we say about authority, ultimately, for our own souls, we are it.

This is the perfect example of pretsel-twisting. Are you a better authority about the True Church than St. John Chrysostom?

I'd rather trust in St. John than in you, because you have no authority and neither do I.

We're not talking about taste in clothes or men. There, we can have our own opinions.

But, one thing I learnt about my conversion is that I was seeking the Ultimate Truth. And if you're heart, truely wants to worship Jesus Christ, then He will guide you to where He is.

[joasia]

Lucian,

I think it still seems to be saying that it is up to each of us as individuals to read, interpret, and decide for ourselves.

There is nothing wrong with that answer, but we should be aware that that is what the answer is.

There are many roads to the destination. You are going on one path and I went on another. But, ultimately, we should end up at the same destination.

It sounds like what you stated in the first paragraph(quote) could mean that if you are in the protestant church and believe that it is right to be there, due to YOUR interpretations, then that's okay.

When I started reading Orthodox saints (16 years ago), they were mainly spiritual writings. The Philokalia, The Life of St. Antony, The Sayings of the Desert Fathers, etc. Real deep stuff. I wasn't aware of all the dogma talk that protestants bring up. That was the way my heart was led by God.

You seem to go by another focus. Which is fine. I guess what I'm saying is that...despite our different angles of approach in learning about Orthodoxy, the main destination should end up at the place where Christ IS.

[Justin Kissel]

Lucian,

I'm not sure that there is a solution to your epistemological question. Not one that can be solved without apparently circular reasoning--when viewed from a human perspective--anyway. It is true that we are human, fallible, biased. As humans, due to "nurture" or "nature" or both, we have certain tendencies, views, and ways of looking at things. There is an ultimate Truth, but since we are sinners we do not have a perfect vision of that ultimate truth: only the Saints know Christ the incarnate Truth as He really is (insofar as any man can comprehend the God-man).

Seemingly, I've pondered over the same things you have. I remember having a debate with a Protestant, when I had just decided to become Orthodox. He put up the Bible (ie. his interpretation of the Bible) as his authority; I put up the Church (ie. my understanding of the Church's understanding of God's revelation) as my authority. As you have repeatedly said on this thread, though: in the end, it all came back to us as individuals, since we were the fallible interpreters trying to understand. As you said, the Church is an infallible interpreter, but what does that mean when we fallible ones must try to understand (ie. interpret) what the infallible Church (infallible because Christ is the head) says?

I believe that there is an answer, from an Orthodox perspective. If you have access to Orthodox Faith And Life in Christ by Saint Justin Popovich, perhaps you could read his essay on the epistemology of St. Isaac the Syrian? I believe that St. Justin really brings to light the truths that Orthodoxy teaches about these issues that you are bringing up. I'm not sure how well I can sum those truths up, but for those without the book (or just for discussion's sake) I'll try. Please tell me where you think I get this wrong--or where this process of thought goes wrong.

Truth is linked with holiness (St. Justin also goes over this a good bit in his essay on Theanthropic and Ecumenistic Education). The Saints are not infallible per se, but their lives are sort of "living dogmatics," and because of their contact with God's grace attain certain abilities and virtues we sinners don't have. One of those abilities is normally the ability to discern truth from falsehood much more easily. In a word, the holier you are, the better you are at detecting truth and falsehood. Everything plays into this: outward asceticism, love, faith, prayer, meekness, etc.

Also, nothing is revealed to us except that which God decides should be revealed to us (and if God does not want to know it, even if he allows us to read or hear something, then we will forget it). Jesus said of the Pharisees "had I not come, they would not have sin, but now that I have come they can see their sin," meaning that God decided when, and where, and by whom the Pharisees in that passage would come to the knowledge of the truth. And God decides for each of us what "measure" of truth we are allowed at any given time. That God will allow us enough truth (e.g., to avoid heresy) we simply have to take by faith.

So we say to ourselves, "How do I know whether what I believe now is the God-revealed truth, or just my own incorrect interpretation?" Obviously we should study and seek to make sure that we are not incorrect. In the end, though, the answer is that it is only in pursuing a pious and God-pleasing life that we can be sure that we are on the right path. Looking at other apparently pious people does not always work, since sometimes the apparently virtuous acts of people (even heretics) can outshine those of the Orthodox. As our Lord says, many will say to him on the last day, "Lord Lord": but doing "great acts" is not proof that people know Christ our God.

It all comes around to living meekly, humbly, lovingly, and sincerely. Our faith must be sincere, or the longest beard, the most prostrations, and indeed even raising someone from the dead, will do no good. Satan keeps vigil all night, knows the Scriptures, fasts constantly, etc.: these things mean nothing apart from the proper mindset; it is only in humility and sincerety that our own deeds are acceptable sacrifices before God. And it is most times only (paradoxically) in humility that God will decide to grant us great understanding. God allows the "wise of this world" to keep their great wisdom, but such wisdom is foolishness to God; while God allows the simple fisherman, tax collector, and so forth learn the secrets that the greatest Old Testament Saints such as Moses, David, and so forth only caught glimpses of.

And Jesus said, "and you shall do even greater deeds," and "even the least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than John the Baptist". But "The first shall be last" and "he who wishes to be great must serve". And so, while it probably isn't a very popular response, I think that the key to solving the epistemological dilemna is choosing salvation, which is a steep and rugged ascent. It is a difficult journey, one in which we get attacked during every day. You are right, I think, when you lament how hard it is to know what to do, when it all comes down to the interpretations of we petty sinners. But the solution is for us not to trust us, but Christ in us. Of course, Protestants and Catholics could say that they do exactly that, but I can't argue with them.

All I can say is what I--as an admittedly horrible, fallible sinner--believe: that the Scripture, the Fathers, and the Church (authorities accepted by both you and I, even if we interpret them differently) all say that one must pursue holiness in meekness and sincerity in order to come to the knowledge of the truth. "You do not have because you do not ask; you do not get what you ask for because you ask wrongly [ie. insincerely]". The first step--by God's grace--is coming to the point where you wish to find the truth: you then ask God for the truth. The second step--by God's grace--is working out your own salvation with fear and trembling, seeking holiness and peace with all men, and so forth.

So how do we know whether such and such a jurisdiction has grace, or whether such and such a jurisdiction are wrong about such and such an issue? We can only trust outside sources (e.g., what a saint says) to a certain extent, since we must allow for the fact that even saints make mistakes, and especially that we are very fallible interpreters. The only sure path is to seek holiness, God's cleansing grace, and then trust in God's love, mercy, and providence: that we will be judged according to our place in life and what we did with what we were given.

[Chrysostomos]

Lucian,

You said: "But what we are really saying is that our arguments are better than their arguments."

I think the better response would be that which I learned from
reading a book by Metropolitan Hierotheos Vlachos, "The Illness
and cure of the soul in the Orthodox Tradition"

From now on when I meet with Protestant or Catholic individuals,
I approach it from a standpoint of the "cure" that we each
propose.

While each has their "cure", the Orthodox Faith has the only
cure that will truly cure the soul, if the prescription is taken.
That is an issue even for us in the Orthodox Faith.

I was discussing this issue with an Orthodox brother and used
an example of a person going to the doctor and learning that
his arteries were getting clogged. He would have to take
Lipitor and exercise, etc. Now this patient could go around
talking about what his doctor prescribed, and how he had
researched the drug, and read all about exercising. He would
quote many experts in the field. He also read about many
others who had actually taken the treatment and were cured.
But he never got around to applying the cure, because it
would be a serious undertaking and he'd rather take his chances
and continue living as he did.

Well, it's the same with the Orthodox "cure". We can talk
about it, we can research, discuss the canons, we can read
all about praying, fasting, doing the Jesus Prayer. We could
quote many Church fathers and also discuss the saints who
had actually applied the "cure" and were "cured".

The Orthodox Faith has the "cure". May we all be the first
to apply it, be cured, and share this "cure" with others, so
that they too may be healed.

F.Y.I. The other book I read by Metropolitan Vlachos was:
"Night in the Desert of the Holy Mountain"

Both books were very helpful to me, and God willing, I
will continue on the path which God has set me on.

Pray for me,

Rd. Chrysostomos