We should become peasants.

[Logos]

Good points Jennifer. Over the last few days my interest has been waning in this whole idea. I don't think that I could do it. Living on a farm would be too mundane for me.

[尼古拉前执事]

I've noticed a drop in posts on this topic and wondered if others were feeling the same as you logos. I too think Jennifer makes some good points. There are a lot of good things that the Ultra orthodox Jews do that makes sense. Living in walking distance to your church, dressing conservatively, bringing the children up in religious schools.

Thanks for the remarks Jennifer and welcome aboard.

[Jennifer]

Orthodox Jews aren't immune to modern problems either. There is drug and alcohol abuse among their young people. And some of their children choose to leave the community, called falling off the derech (Hebrew for path...I think).

Their schools require a tremendous amount of resources. It takes a rather large community to support that kind of infastructure. The Orthodox children today will much much more observant than their parents and their parents are more observant than their grandparents. It took the huge influx of holocuast survivors into certain areas of Brooklyn to build up those communities. It also took some very wealthy individuals to fund the schools. There's also considerable government support because they tend to vote as a block so NY politicians don't want to alienate them.

Also it's a teaching of their religion that they have to be separate from non-Jews. I think it would be rather difficult to replicate that kind of a insular community without a religious teaching of separation or a different language. An Orthodox Jew is prohibited from eating in the home of a non-Jew. Socialization is prohibited to a large extent. The Church could not impose those kinds of rules because the Church believes that it must evangelize. Remember, Jews don't evangelize. Their dietary restrictions also impose separation.

[尼古拉前执事]

To combine a number of comments together, yes there are still problems in such a community. Although there are things that an Orthodox Christian community would have over the other mentioned communities due to variances in the religions.

The Society of St. John's as I understood it started as a community of Traditionalist Roman Catholics. They started a seminary/monastery and bought all the land around it and have been inviting other Traditionalist Roman Catholics to live around it. They give them the land to build a house on.

Ave Maria University is planning the same thing with Conservative Roman Catholics, in building a University and then a Catholic town around it.

I think that this, like the Orthodox Jews is the way to do it. In the middle of nowhere you buy land and erect a church and then land around it is for other Orthodox Christians to build homes in walking distance of the church.

Except in the idea of a modern unincorporated town I think you'd want to be near enough to a road that could take you into a town with a grocery store and whatnot. This also provides a community that one can evangelize to.

All of this takes benefactors and hopefully selfless benefactorS as when there is only one person with the money, human nature tends to make them want to have it be their way since they are paying for everything. Also the guidance of a spiritual father and priest to the community.

In order to build up a town or community around a church, you'd have to find a priest that shares the same dream and enough people to support him and his family.

[demetrios karaolanis]

sorry I have been gone for a while, but I have begun to follow this thread. I think that it is a wonderful idea. you may have discussed this already, but I think that this sounds alot like the greek villages of the agean sea like olympos. it is a village on the island of karpathos where there are a number of villages with dilligently working orthodox christians who live in a traditional way in a small community. check out this link or do a search on it.

http://www.agn.gr/hellas/dodecan/karpath.asp

[Justin Kissel]

The interest hasn't lessened on my part, I'm just thinking about it more realistically now, and trying to slow down a bit. This is doable, though I wonder how many understand what it will take to get it done. If we want to get serious here, let's start talking in specifics.

• Where will it be located? I suggest somewhere far enough south that cold temperatures aren't really a problem. Hot temperatures can be solved much easier and much more cheaply than cold temperatures. I say this because my wife cannot handle extremely cold temperatures, it's bad for her already fragile health. Perhaps we could be in North Carolina, Arkansas, or somewhere like that; preferrably somewhere without an Orthodox community near us, and especially without a ROCOR community near us.

• How many people--if their spiritual father gives the OK, and it is the will of God--are really interested in this? Let me put a more practical face on it. How many are ready to save up ten thousand dollars or more as their share in the land purchase? How many are ready to uproot their lives and move to an entirely different place?

• When will we meet? It's easy talking about this kind of stuff online. Let's do something--not necessarily any time in the next few months, but eventually--that will be a bit of a test as to how serious people are. Let's meet somewhere (if and when we are pretty sure we're going forward with this) so we can meet each other face to face and get to know one another.

• We need to get more specific with our vision: secular jobs, only farming, crafts, a mixture, or what? Water and Electric or not? Telephones or not? Cars or not (this will have to do with the jobs thing)? Etc.

[nikolaoc]

To ALL who are considering this,

WARNING! This type of endeavor is not for those without skills and and a TOTAL committment. (and, by the way, heat can be as deadly as cold).

The idea is romantic but the reality is not. How many of you have ever slaughtered and butchered your own meat? How many know how to can vegetables without canning botulism? How many of you know how to pickle kraut? How many know how to trap animals that are killing your chickens?
The Amish learn all of these things by growing up with them, AND the Amish have huge extended families for support when things go bad. Farm familes in all cultures are by necessity large to spread out the labor. And that labor is never ending.

I know of a young ROCOR couple who tried homesteading in north east Texas not far from Texarkana. They had a vision similar to what is being proposed here. It did NOT work. It was too much for them. They are no longer married and the man has left the church. The strain was too much for the marriage and his faith.

Another thing to consider, good farm land is NOT cheap anywhere. The Amish are economically viable because they have inheirited the land not gone into hock buying it. You will need at least 50 acres per family and expect to pay a minimum of $1000 per acre for usable farm land. And that does not include a house or barn. The land has to be level and fertile and clear of most timber (not more than 15 acres out of the 50 should be in forest)
forest land is cheaper but the cost of clearing it will be more than you paid for the land. Mountain land is cheap (like in Arkansas) but mostly unusable for anything but grazing goats (and in spite of what you hear from wildlife experts those big doglike things that kill your goats ARE wolves)

I farmed in Ohio and in Texas as a child and I come from a family of East Texas farmers who plowed by mule and made their own soap, and ate possum and armadillo when they had to. I do not recommend this.

nikolaoc