Fundamentalist????

[CGW]

I have not been to Greece enough to know, but aren't their any books available covering these persecutions? There are ones in English which describe the brutal details of many people and individual cases.

Then name the book.

[OrthodoxyOrDeath]

Makis,

I thought I would recommend a few books that describe some of the details of this persecution.

"The Struggle Against Ecumenism" published by Holy Transfiguration Monastery is very good. It describes that when the New Calendar was first introduced in Greece in 1924, virtually all the clergy submitted. Only the fathers on Mount Athos and some pious clergy and lay people refused to comply, the book notes. "From the very beginning (the Orthodox faithful who continued to follow the Old calendar) were violently persecuted by the police authorities at the behest of Archbishop Chrysostom Papadopoulos."

We're told in this book that when the calendar change was first implemented in the early 1920s, the New Calendar bishops "unleashed a terrible persecution against clergy and faithful who refused to follow'' the New Calendar. The bishops ordered police to break up any Old Calendar church service. Police, swinging clubs, smashed heads, killed people, pulled priests out of the sanctuary, spilled Holy communion, broke Chalices in half, stripped priests of their rasa, and ripped the habits off nuns. One woman, Catherine Routis, a young mother of two children, was killed by police in November 1927, while trying to protect a priest following church services at a church in Mandra of Attica.

"A Concise History of Greece" by Richard Clogg covering the modern history of Greece is another good one.

And "The Calendar Question" by Metropolitan Philaret if I recall covers some good points of history too.

I was looking on my shelf because I have another book that has a really good chapter on this persecution, I thought it was "Hitler's Greece" (which is another good book) but I couldn't confirm it by scanning the pages.

[Seraphim Reeves]

CGW,

As far as redefining "fundamentalist" is concerned, it is hardly an act of intellectual integrity to do so. The real modern ecumenists are descended (at least in part) from those whom the real fundamentalists opposed, after all.

You're not familiar with the history of "five-point fundamentalism"? This was the attempt to reduce Protestantism to five basic points, which everyone could agree upon, and see this as a basis for unity (all else being made secondary).

If I were to say it to her, I would not use those words. Those particular words are directed to the people who doggedly remember and do not forgive wounds that were alleged to be done by others, those who bear grudges on the basis of legends and rumors.

There are several works on this subject (whether it be the persecution of Old Calendarists by the the "state church" of Greece, or the persecution of anti-Sergianists by the MP). However, if you were in fact interested, you could read details of ongoing persecution in Russia to this day. I know the ROAC has had it's churches & properties vandalized, even burned to the ground. The stories have become quite common. The following is simply one of many similar stories...

http://www.roac.ru/news_e.shtml

The question is not one of forgiveness - it is, unfortunately, one of repentence.

But yes, we all need to forgive, don't we?

Yes, but not forget - for the simple reason that to varying degrees, these forms of harassment have been repaired for, and are on-going.

Well, being "Godless", it is hardly to expected that they place much value in repentance. And where is it written that forgiveness is predicated on repentance?

It isn't. However, the "snake is still a snake", no matter how merciful or tender hearted it's victims may try to be towards it. Recognizing this is is both a matter of truth and prudence.

Whether or not this is true is beside the point. Let the dead bury their dead; why is it so necessary to harp on the sins of years gone by?

Because this basic posture of the ecumenists/sergianists has never changed, as have not their basic attitude towards their heterodoxy. Neither has been repaired.

Seraphim

[CGW]

You're not familiar with the history of "five-point fundamentalism"? This was the attempt to reduce Protestantism to five basic points, which everyone could agree upon, and see this as a basis for unity (all else being made secondary).

The thing is, this isn't the root of modern fundamentalism. You can see this at this page at BJU and I think they could be considered experts on the matter.

If I were to say it to her, I would not use those words. Those particular words are directed to the people who doggedly remember and do not forgive wounds that were alleged to be done by others, those who bear grudges on the basis of legends and rumors.

I know the ROAC has had it's churches & properties vandalized, even burned to the ground.

I would not deny that they have. However, even the ROAC website does not dare to assert that these acts were instigated by the hierarchs of the MP.

But more to the point: no church that you attend has been burned, has it? And no such church is in any real danger of being burned, is it? And are the police taking away pastors in your country, or in the USA? No? Perhaps it is a part of the Russian culture, from which ROAC derives, to do these things. Perhaps it is (or was) the culture of Orthodox countries in general.

The question is not one of forgiveness - it is, unfortunately, one of repentence.

Well, no, that is not the question. The question is whether forgiveness is to be predicated upon repentance. Well, not repentance per se, but a certain abasement and submission. If the MP were to say, "we denounce these acts of arson and will do what is in our power to stop them", would that be sufficient repentance? (I'm betting that the answer is "no".)

But yes, we all need to forgive, don't we?

Yes, but not forget - for the simple reason that to varying degrees, these forms of harassment have been repaired for, and are on-going.

In the sense which "not forget" tends to be used here, forgiving demands forgetting.

[John the Russian]

CGW Wrote:
Perhaps it is a part of the Russian culture, from which ROAC derives, to do these things.

PART OF THE RUSSIAN CULTURE TO BURN DOWN ITS CHURCHES???
You obviously have no clue about russian culture. Russians ( not soviets) have always loved the church. Since the time of St Vladimir and the beginning of orthodoxy in Russia nothing was valued more by a Russian than the church. The church came first in life, before ANYTHING else. Society was organized around the church calander. Holidays in Russia were celebrated by all according to the church calander.
Thaose that are burning down churches cannot be considered Russians.

[CGW]

CGW Wrote:
Perhaps it is a part of the Russian culture, from which ROAC derives, to do these things.

PART OF THE RUSSIAN CULTURE TO BURN DOWN ITS CHURCHES???

Part of Russian culture, perhaps, to burn down one's enemy's churches. Or perhaps Russian culture has changed, and churches are burnt as they are in the USA: for mere entertainment.

[John the Russian]

CGW,
You are right about that. The MP considers the true church to be its enemy and is therefore behind the burning of the churches for it would never be done by a true Russian.