On Headcoverings and Modesty of Women in Church

[away]

Saint symeon the fool went to Church and threw rocks at people.

I dont think he did it because they were not wearing head gear. Perhaps it was because they were.

I just spent a month in France, I couldnt speak the language so I had a wonderful time and my forced silence somehow seemed to make up for the fact that I was only hungry twice. When I got home I found out from my Father who I was there with that I had been politely laughing at many racist and dirty jokes and spent quite alot of time eating pizza and drinking coffee with a very hospitable and friendly homosexual couple.

Sometimes I wish I were blind, deaf and mute.

[Daniel]

I have beg to differ regarding men's uncovered heads being scriptural.... in old Judaic practice men's heads were covered as a sign of respect to God. Christians in an effort to be different from Jews started that whole uncovered head bit...for men at least.

1 Corinthians 11
…Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you. But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ… Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head. For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God…

[JohnMarq]

I have beg to differ regarding men's uncovered heads being scriptural.... in old Judaic practice men's heads were covered as a sign of respect to God. Christians in an effort to be different from Jews started that whole uncovered head bit...for men at least.

Miriam, please go back over our discussion of this earlier in this thread. Your "Old Judaic" practice has nothing to do with scripture and the Tradition of the Church. The Jewish men's headcovering you're refering to is a post-Apostolic Talmudic practice. The uncovered man at prayer is the earlier. The Jews changed, not the Christians.

-John

[LoveToChant]

Hi everyone,

I'm relatively new to this site and have spent some late nights reading posts, old and new.

I came across a thread from 2003 regarding women covering their heads in church and other modesty issues. By the way, a lot of your comments strengthened my resolve about modesty in church AND out.

I'm a convert to Orthodoxy (7 years old now) and until this summer was an antiochian. I'm currently a refugee looking for a new home.

About 3 years ago, I felt God wanted me to wear a head covering in church (very unpopular in my parish at the time) and began doing so. I have not cared what people think and am continuing to wear one. I'm trying NOT to let what others think and say influence my decision.

However, now, in visiting other parishes (where no one else wears one), I worry about offending someone, especially since I've heard comments about people doing that looking like Muslims.

I'm resolved to wearing a head covering, but sometimes it's so difficult when you're the only one doing it.

I guess I'm just being insecure. Any encouragement?

[Jean-Serge]

Headcovering in Orthodoxy has no relation with head covering in Islam. In Islam, the woman must hide her body so as not to tempt the poor man who by the way could fight against his thoughts instead of blaming women for their clothes. The problem is that many people think that headcorvering in Orthodoxy has the same origin. In Orthodoxy, as Saint Paul explain this, headcovering is quite mysterious : it expresses the submission of women to men and the Apostles also says "because of Angels". The clear proof this has no link with sexuality (like in Islam) is that Orthodox women are not invited to cover their heads outside the church...

Another question : women wearing trousers. The nomocanon prohibits women to wear male clothes and vice versa. The fact is that, according to me, trousers are no longer exclusively male clothes. If you go to foreign countries like Africa and India, you will be able to see man wearing things like skirts... I think it depends on the culture, but of course in case of any doubt it is better wearing a skirt... I remember one time I went in a Romanian church. Romanian are used to prostrating many times and even spend a grat time prostrated. I saw a woman prostrated just before me, wearing a tight pant... Sorry, this woman was surely very pious but the scene was both so sexual and so ridiculous! And would not have happened with a skirt...

A last point : generally men are used to making commentaries on women clothes. I would like men also to have a look on their own clothes. Because decent wearing is also required for men. For instance I do not like at all men wearing T-shirts with no sleeves at all : the liturgy is not Mr Universe Contest where you must display your muscles... By the way, these no sleeves T-shirts were originally a homosexual fashion...

[LoveToChant]

Thanks Jean-Serge. I appreciate your response. I visted an OCA parish in my town today and a woman (also wearing a head covering) came up to me afterward and said "Oh, I'm so glad to see someone else covering her head, now I don't feel so out of place." And this woman is a regular member of that parish! I told her to stand firm and not change.

And regarding skirts, NOW I just need to figure out a way to do prostrations without stepping on my skirt! I guess I'll have to talk to my Romanian nun friend and ask her how she does it!!

Regarding your last point, I agree. Standing behind a man with tight trousers in church can be distracting even for the most pious, modest woman!

May God continue to help us turn our eyes and hearts toward him only!

[sue57]

This is my last post. The reasons I won't go into, but, for the love of Christ, PLEASE stop the cruel judgement that goes on, on this board and others. I am not refering to the above posts about headcoverings. But, could someone please tell me HOW a post could appear, talking about being able to see some girl's underwear while she venerated an icon, and then go to describe it's color, etc. Is this Orthodoxy?? What are we, Christians or Pharisees? I'm so disallusioned, I'm going to my priest tomorrow. Hey everybody, pray that he kicks me out of ROCOR, along with the improperly dressed, those who might own a radio or tv, or have, I don't know what else...indoor plumbing maybe. And yes, I realise I am being sarcastic, but my heart breaks when I read so may posts that judge only by image, by fault, by carelessness, all the sins that none of us are without.
Whatever. I don't even care anymore.

I just want to leave you all with one quote:

"The candle-end was flickering out in the battered candlestick, dimly lighting up in the poverty-stricken room where the murderer and the harlot who had so strangely been reading together the eternal book."

I know that anger is a sin, and so, have mercy and pray for me, a sinner.