OCA Receives uniate Monastery

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Nevski
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Post by Nevski »

Nicholas wrote:

I do not understand what you are getting at, according to the sources above, ROCOR is NOT in communion with Serbia or the JP.

Oh, I see. I read your statement to mean that the bishops were saying that ROCOR is not in coummunion with world Orthodoxy. So let's go back to square one. From an Orthodox web site:

Semi-Canonical Jurisdiction

Although not in itself in communion with most of the other Orthodox jurisdictions, the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia (ROCOR) is in communion with the Church of Serbia and Church of Jerusalem, both of which are in communion with the other autocephalous and autonomous Orthodox churches, thus giving it semi-legitimate status. It is the largest of the independent churches. There has been increased interest within ROCOR and the Church of Russia for a rapprochement since the start of the Third Millenium.

How, then, do we break this deadlock?

Daniel
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Post by Daniel »

Nevski wrote:

Semi-Canonical Jurisdiction

Although not in itself in communion with most of the other Orthodox jurisdictions, the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia (ROCOR) is in communion with the Church of Serbia and Church of Jerusalem, both of which are in communion with the other autocephalous and autonomous Orthodox churches, thus giving it semi-legitimate status. It is the largest of the independent churches. There has been increased interest within ROCOR and the Church of Russia for a rapprochement since the start of the Third Millenium.

That's rich!!! :lol:

ROCOR is 'legitimate' because St. Tikhon gave them autonomy, not because they are in 'communion' with 'world orthodoxy'.

How, then, do we break this deadlock?

Unfortunately not until there is some consesus within the ROCOR heirarchy.

Nevski
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Post by Nevski »

Daniel wrote:
Nevski wrote:

Semi-Canonical Jurisdiction

Although not in itself in communion with most of the other Orthodox jurisdictions, the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia (ROCOR) is in communion with the Church of Serbia and Church of Jerusalem, both of which are in communion with the other autocephalous and autonomous Orthodox churches, thus giving it semi-legitimate status. It is the largest of the independent churches. There has been increased interest within ROCOR and the Church of Russia for a rapprochement since the start of the Third Millenium.

That's rich!!!

ROCOR is 'legitimate' because St. Tikhon gave them autonomy, not because they are in 'communion' with 'world orthodoxy'.

How, then, do we break this deadlock?

Unfortunately not until there is some consesus within the ROCOR heirarchy.

A couple of observations are in order: 1) I'm not sure why you chose to focus on the comment about legitimacy when the main point of the post was to show that there seems to be some sort of disagreement here as to whom ROCOR is in communion with. Based on this and other things I seem to remember reading, ROCOR is indeed in communion with the Church of Serbia and the JP.

2) Next, however, you write that this matter won't be resolved until there is some consensus within the ROCOR hierarchy. But it is not just the lack of consensus you see there that should vex you. For, on certain issues, one can discern the same kind of lack of consensus among the Fathers, even, at the end of the day, where a consensus patrum has been alleged. The Fathers are far more difficult, far more nuanced, than many of you seem to think.

The schismatic bishops, priests and laity who have formed ROAC and other Miscellany cannot seem to live with all that nuance; all that complexity. But their splitting off into smaller and smaller groups of the "pure" will only serve to create more problems than it is intended to serve. At first it will seem that they've finally gained the clarity, and the purity, and the absense of nuance that makes them so psychologically comfortable. But they will have created and phenomenon that they can't control, for more disputes will arise and therefore more and smaller schisms will be formed. And they will draw few to themselves evangelically, as they will have become so isolated, eccentric and devoid of the Spirit that few if any people will come to them.

Such a pity, and worthy only of our tearful prayers.

Daniel
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Post by Daniel »

Nevski wrote:

1) I'm not sure why you chose to focus on the comment about legitimacy when the main point of the post was to show that there seems to be some sort of disagreement here as to whom ROCOR is in communion with.

I just thought the notion that ROCOR get's it's legitimacy by way of the Serb and JP churches was funny. It wasn't directed at you in any way. I did understand why you posted it. Please forgive me.

Nevski
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Post by Nevski »

Nicholas wrote:

I do not understand what you are getting at, according to the sources above, ROCOR is NOT in communion with Serbia or the JP.

As I've done a bit of research tonight I see that your sources have put it quite simplisitically. It appears that ROCOR was clearly in communion with the Serbian Church some time ago, but that they've drifted apart to some extent. Yet, the question of whether or not they are still in communion with one another seems to be disputed even today. I even found a few sources that indicated that ROCOR is even in communion with the EP. Can this be true? It may explain Elder Ephraim's history and current ministry under the EP, I'm not sure.

But returning to the original point, it seems those two bishops you referenced really haven't rendered an accurate picture of the matter. So, let's just say that ROCOR at one point WAS in communion with the Serbian Church. Wouldn't that then have put it "in communion with" world Orthodoxy, in the same manner that the OCA's being in communion with Antioch allegedly puts it in communion with the Oriental Orthodox?

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Seraphim Reeves
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Post by Seraphim Reeves »

Nevski,

As I've done a bit of research tonight I see that your sources have put it quite simplisitically. It appears that ROCOR was clearly in communion with the Serbian Church some time ago, but that they've drifted apart to some extent. Yet, the question of whether or not they are still in communion with one another seems to be disputed even today. I even found a few sources that indicated that ROCOR is even in communion with the EP. Can this be true? It may explain Elder Ephraim's history and current ministry under the EP, I'm not sure.

Much of the confusion here is a result of recent changes in the ROCOR's leadership/orientation. Put simply, ROCOR has been for at least a decade (though there are seeds of this much earlier) pursuing a path to place itself into the "mainstream" of what is often called "canonical Orthodoxy."

The confusion is, I think, symptomatic of a long term break down in discipline within the Synod, as well as some older issues which have combined to create much confusion.

For example, the issue of the Serbs: according to a fairly recent (and well known) communication between Patriarch Pavle and Alexis II/Agent Drozdov, Pavle repudiated his church's links to the ROCOR (this was, of course, before the recent open talks between the MP and ROCOR). Confusion is added, because it appears within the Serbian fold, you'll get different opinions - some bishops saying "ROCOR, a.o.k", others holding just as harsh a line as Pavle. Of course, it's also fair to say that Pavle's witness here is far from unambiguous - apparently he has had, at times, quite warm relations with ROCOR, been received as a Patriarch by ROCOR on a visit to the United States, etc.

The "Serb situation" is then further confused on the ROCOR side. If you ask most people (at least on the 'net, which is often not really representative on these things, I know), the Serbs and ROCOR are "in communion" - that concelebrations do continue between the two in many places, is well known. Yet even to this moment, you'll still find many (including a public statement which I believe was made by Bishop Gabriel, who is opposed to the negotiations with the MP) articulating the old line, that "no, we're not in communion with the Serbs". Part of the source of this confusion, has to do with the historical ties which have existed beween the ROCOR and the Serbs; I think it is fair to say that those who continue to speak of an existing communion between the two (all the while saying they're not in communion with the EP, or other groups over the issue of ecumenism), are putting sentimentality over good sense and canonical order.

A similar situation exists with the JP. It is only in recent times that the JP has been added to the limited list of those who the ROCOR (or at least many within her) claim to be in communion with. Historically, cordial relations exist with the JP due to the presence of ROCOR's mission in the Holy Land. However, I think it's far from unambiguous that the two were "constantly in communion", particularly given the perceived need by a delegation of ROCOR visiting the Holy Land, to squeeze a positive appraisal of the ROCOR from Patriarch Eirinaios. Also, I think it's extremly strange to speak of "communion" as well, given that in the United States, in some places, ROCORites are not supposed to go to the JP's missions in the U.S.

IOW, it's all over the place. Ecclessiastically speaking, it's incomprehensible, and the claims for "communion" or "not" become debatable.

The claim to "communion with the EP" is a very new one, and I think the most tenous. This is based on a recent concelebration in Europe, associated with the visit of a delegation bearing (I believe) the Kursk-Root Icon of the Theotokos; apparently it was an "on the spot" thing, and was (officially) not looked on well by Metropolitan Laurus. However, I'm unaware of anyone being disciplined in association with this.

What the ROCOR actually stands for on these issues, is hard to discipher. What is not, however, is it's official adoption (back 1994) of the ecclessiology of the "resistor synod" TOC ("Cyprianite" Old Calendarists) by the ROCOR - for the ROCOR declared upon entering ecclessiastical communion with them that they (Cyprianites) "hold the same ecclessiology which we do". While one could argue there is some ambiguity prior to this what the "official" ROCOR line in fact was on those they were not in communion with, this ended that ambiguity. Hence, what we can say, is that the ROCOR doese "officially" acknowledge that the grace of the mysteries does exist in "world Orthodoxy" (like the Cyprianites), that they are real parts of the "Orthodox Church", and not apostates/heretics/schismatics, etc.

Thus, ROCOR's alienation from them for several decades (which began in earnest after the EP "lifted" the anathemas the Orthodox Church had announced against Papism), is now "officially" acknowledged as being one only of "interuption in relations" due to some sticking points, and not the grave matter which was articulated in the 1983 "Anathema Against Ecumenism" which had been officially issued by the ROCOR and added to it's liturgical books for the Sunday of Orthodoxy (condeming ecumenism along with other heresies.)

Undoubtedly, it is this "at the top" recognition of the validity of the MP, and "world Orthodoxy" in general, which allowed for the more strident talk of "communion with the Serbs" and "communion with the JP" to flourish, and further, is what is allowing the current discussions with the MP to occur at all, with all of it's talk of "re-unification" and merger, rather than what should occur; a call by the ROCOR for an act of repentence to be submitted by the heirarchy of the MP, and talk of legitimizing them in the same way any other schism/heresy is reconciled to the Church.

As an aside, it was precisely the official adoption of the "Cyprian" position by the ROCOR, that led to the separation of a large part of it's presence in Russia to break with ROCOR, and re-form under the presidency of Metropolitan Valentin (of Suzdal) as the "ROAC" (Russian Orthodox Autonomous Church.)

But returning to the original point, it seems those two bishops you referenced really haven't rendered an accurate picture of the matter. So, let's just say that ROCOR at one point WAS in communion with the Serbian Church. Wouldn't that then have put it "in communion with" world Orthodoxy, in the same manner that the OCA's being in communion with Antioch allegedly puts it in communion with the Oriental Orthodox?

Two points...

  • historically, it cannot be said that ROCOR gets it's "legitimacy" from being "in communion with world Orthodoxy." This is not Orthodox ecclessiology - the Church "is", where a genuine Church is present... and this authenticity is ultimatly founded upon a true confession, and canonical foundation (and in that order; though neither can be ignored.) ROCOR, historically, had both. If it cut it's relations with every other "Orthodox" group on the planet, because of their involvement in ecumenism, this would not affect their own "legitimacy", since it would not be a schism, but separation from falsehood, which is not only "allowed" in Orthodoxy, but even required.

  • however, you do make a good point regarding the opinion that ROCOR is "in communion" with the Serbs and the JP. If this is in fact the case, then it is (at least in an ecclessiological sense) meaningless to say "otoh, we're not in communion with the Antiochians, EP, Romanians, GOA, OCA, etc.", since all this would signify (at best) is a break down in relations, and a sin on someone's part, against charity. While admittedly these things (even in times well before our own) can be messy, and remain ambiguous for a brief span (historically this was due to problems in communication), I think it's safe to say that this is not the situation we now face. Given this, I think you have a valid point.

Seraphim

gbmtmas

Post by gbmtmas »

seraphim reeves wrote:

Nevski,

...regarding the opinion that ROCOR is "in communion" with the Serbs and the JP. If this is in fact the case, then it is (at least in an ecclessiological sense) meaningless to say "otoh, we're not in communion with the Antiochians, EP, Romanians, GOA, OCA, etc.", since all this would signify (at best) is a break down in relations, and a sin on someone's part, against charity. While admittedly these things (even in times well before our own) can be messy, and remain ambiguous for a brief span (historically this was due to problems in communication), I think it's safe to say that this is not the situation we now face. Given this, I think you have a valid point.

Seraphim

Hi Seraphim,

Given the fact that ROCOR has seemingly "sporadic" communion with the Serbs, and is in definite communion with the JP** (at least in the Holy Land***)--all of which are in communion with Antioch, the EP, the OCA, etc., also puts ROCOR in "indirect" and "sporadic" communion with the non-Chalcedonians as well; since Antioch "sporadically" communes non-Chalcedonians (and are in communion with the Serbs). That is why, I earlier pointed out that members of ROCOR are in no viable position to point the finger at the OCA, when they themselves are in a similar situation.

OTOH, members of groups who have completely broken all ties with "world Orthodoxy"--such as the ROAC, the HOCNA, etc., can indeed viably make this charge and not do so hypocritically.

**The JP, with whom ROCOR is in communion with, is a member of the WCC--as has been recently discussed on the Indiana List.

***Recently it was stated (from a statement from HG Bishop Gabriel) that ROCOR is not in communion with the JP. Well, actually, that's not what he said. He did say that members of ROCOR can and do commune in JP Churches in the Holy Land (i.e. the Holy Sepulchre), although he discouraged attendance at JP parishes in the US. This is communion, nevertheless.

gbmtmas

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