Discuss the holy Mysteries and the liturgical life of the Church such as the Hours, Vespers, Matins/Orthros, Typica, and the Divine Liturgy. All Forum Rules apply. No polemics. No heated discussions. No name-calling.
What is the meaning of this passage?
But by these fruits and this burden we do not understand [actual] sin, such as impiety, blasphemy, murder, sodomy, adultery, fornication, enmity, and whatsoever else is by our depraved choice committed contrarily to the Divine Will, not from nature
When I read the above quote, I took it to mean that we have a hereditary [inheritance] of fallen nature, let us say, something perhaps best described as an inclination to sin, but not ACTUAL GUILT for anything Adam and Eve did. We inherited the conditions produced by the fall, but not the guilt.
Yes, even though we are not guilty of Adam and Eve's sin, we still suffer the effects of the Ancestral Curse.
However, the Council of Jerusalem's treatment of Holy Baptism is interesting. If we are not guilty of this Original Sin, then why does the Council say that the effects of Baptism are (1) the remission of the hereditary transgression?
And the effects of Baptism are, to speak concisely, firstly, the remission of the hereditary transgression, and of any sins whatsoever which the baptised may have committed. Secondly, it delivereth him from the eternal punishment, to which he was liable, as well for original sin, as for mortal sins he may have individually committed. Thirdly, it giveth to such immortality; for in justifying them from past sins, it maketh them temples of God.
It is very interesting that the Council uses Roman Catholic terminology: original sin and mortal sin
Yes, the translations that Orthodox people use are often done by Roman Catholics. For example, the Sayings of the Desert Fathers, a very popular text and affordable, arranged alphabetically are published by Cistercian Publications and were translated by Benedicta Ward, a papist scholar nun. Yet the volume is to be found on almost any Orthodox bookshelf.
Yes, the translations that Orthodox people use are often done by Roman Catholics. For example, the Sayings of the Desert Fathers, a very popular text and affordable, arranged alphabetically are published by Cistercian Publications and were translated by Benedicta Ward, a papist scholar nun. Yet the volume is to be found on almost any Orthodox bookshelf.
Wow! This is getting really difficult and deep. I fear to tread here. I accept that we are always capable and free to choose the good and reject evil. I accept and believe that due to the Fall the Earth was made subject to disease, difficulty, and death. I believe that the a weakness entered into our souls where we have a desire to sin and that these can develop through habit into passions that can eventually bind and enslave us to certain sins, which can look and feel a lot like a kind of compulsive slavery to sin. And finally, that Christ has come in grace and truth to set the captive free and that now, through the gospel and the mysteries of the Church we can be raised to new life in Christ and be the bondservants of Christ in word and deed doing the things that please God, and that this sonship with God makes us all citizens of Heaven.
Does that agree with what you wrote, Jonathan? I dare not say more than that for fear of speaking about something beyond my depth.
That seems right. Though I'm really wondering if it's misleading to talk about an "inclination to sin" that is innate. The Jerusalem Council seems adamant that the Fall did not deprive us of the ability to discern good from evil, or to choose good over evil. Fr Steenberg seems to say that our inclination to sin is basically acquired: nurture rather than nature. If humanity in general seems to be sinful, that is because human society became sinful through the freely chosen actions of humans. The sins of those humans then creates an environment that encourages more sin, and so the process continues in a vicious cycle. But the inclination to sin is not genetic: we are all born capable of good.
It may be that "inclination to sin" itself needs to be defined carefully.
This topic is quite fascinating to me as a cognitive scientist! Although as always one must be careful not to force the Fathers' teaching into modern scientific categories; one can, I think, use some of modern science to elucidate their teaching.
The sheer difficulty of understanding these topics is no doubt the reason the Church expresses them primarily through imagery and parable.
Wow! This is getting really difficult and deep. I fear to tread here. I accept that we are always capable and free to choose the good and reject evil. I accept and believe that due to the Fall the Earth was made subject to disease, difficulty, and death. I believe that the a weakness entered into our souls where we have a desire to sin and that these can develop through habit into passions that can eventually bind and enslave us to certain sins, which can look and feel a lot like a kind of compulsive slavery to sin. And finally, that Christ has come in grace and truth to set the captive free and that now, through the gospel and the mysteries of the Church we can be raised to new life in Christ and be the bondservants of Christ in word and deed doing the things that please God, and that this sonship with God makes us all citizens of Heaven.
Does that agree with what you wrote, Jonathan? I dare not say more than that for fear of speaking about something beyond my depth.
That seems right. Though I'm really wondering if it's misleading to talk about an "inclination to sin" that is innate. The Jerusalem Council seems adamant that the Fall did not deprive us of the ability to discern good from evil, or to choose good over evil. Fr Steenberg seems to say that our inclination to sin is basically acquired: nurture rather than nature. If humanity in general seems to be sinful, that is because human society became sinful through the freely chosen actions of humans. The sins of those humans then creates an environment that encourages more sin, and so the process continues in a vicious cycle. But the inclination to sin is not genetic: we are all born capable of good.
It may be that "inclination to sin" itself needs to be defined carefully.
This topic is quite fascinating to me as a cognitive scientist! Although as always one must be careful not to force the Fathers' teaching into modern scientific categories; one can, I think, use some of modern science to elucidate their teaching.
The sheer difficulty of understanding these topics is no doubt the reason the Church expresses them primarily through imagery and parable.
The parable is one of the best ways of teaching us divine truths.
C. S. Lewis imitates the parable style in his Chronicles of Narnia and Space Trilogy.
In another thread, Metropolitan Moses discusses the Merchants of Cool and how our youth are being groomed or "nurtured" into a violent and rage-filled culture. This is not natural.
Last edited by Maria on Tue 5 March 2013 3:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Reason:Split out quote from St. Paul from this post into a new thread and moved it into Sacred Scriptures.
