nathanv wrote:Greetings,
About 12 years ago I was very interested in orthodoxy and was chrismated into a Russian Church Abroad church in Denver. Since then I have relapsed into generic protestantism.Sincerely,
Nathan
Good evening Nathan,
If you don't mind my asking, what caused you to revert to Protestantism?
-Antonios
Amen, Nathan! You are indeed most welcome and we will do our best to answer any questions you have.
Symeon
I am wondering the same : we are probably ALL curious to hear the LONG version of the story,
if and when you would feel up to it.
At least the medium one ...
Was it actually PEOPLE who lured you to their Protestant habitats?
I mean, like, PEER PRESSURE of sorts that pulled you away from the Russian Church Abroad ?
Was that the epoch of Fr Steven _____ [mnn, I can't remember his last name] that you were chrismated at that All Saints of Russia parish ?
Interesting that they would Chrismate you in a ROCOR parish. In any case, there are of course justifiable cases for it.
Due to scandals, many Protestant converts to Orthodoxy might be tempted to return to the simple zeal and moving feelings commonly found in Protestant and Holiness Movement churches. Leonard Ravenhill, for example, in many ways outshone most Orthodox Christians in terms of his zeal, preaching, and evangelism and uncompromising call to a devout and holy life. Unfortunately his doctrine contained certain heresies common to the confessions of the West, especially his denial of sacramental grace, the Virgin Mary, the apostolic succession of bishops and so on. Nevertheless, when we observe scandals among the clergy and occasionally monasteries the converts and lay people could be tempted to nostalgically want to return to the simpler and less scandalous life in a zealous and dedicated holiness bible church. Besides that, there are many other reasons why someone might return to the protestant realm. It is sad when such things happen. But I wager that they cannot stay there long before they come to feel a greater loss at having been deprived of the depth and mystical grace of the a divine liturgy or vespers with the faces of the saints in the holy icons being illuminated by candlelight, and the fragrance of incense, the sense of the otherworldly that permeates a holy Orthodox Church--all this will call them back home. Protestants have no such comforts and power, though they have some good things, but it is pale and bland compared to the fullness of Orthodoxy.
Definitely, regarding the last couple sentences.
I am so against Protestants that I don't even CARE what the "holiness movement" is !
If it were any other topic, I would inquire, so I could learn.
Even hearing the name of the man mentioned turns me off ....! I am being honest, because i think we are all
conditioned by American society to "see the best in SUPPOSEDLY fellow Christians".
But i don't consider them Christians. They are just a sect of deluded rebels against God's Church !
It's better to tell the truth rather than encourage the wrong sects to believe they are legitimate !
To hate the Queen of Heaven, anyway, tells ALL about them.
One does not even need to look farther than that.
I refuse to talk to them except for necessary business interactions or day to day dealings.
If this sounds extreme, it is. But better to keep a purity of spirit.
Another note : I noticed that the people often former Protestants and Evangelicals
when they come to Antiochian or OCA jurisdictions, yak about "Smells and Bells".
THAT ALWAYS revolts me. Why can't they SAY: INCENSE, FRAGRANCE< BEAUTY< MAJESTY of the Liturgy, etc. ???
They don't WANT to acknowledge these high qualities of Orthodox services.
Instead they deliberately demean them with these trendy little phrases.
Anyone else find that expression nauseating !?!
Barbara wrote:Another note : I noticed that the people often former Protestants and Evangelicals
when they come to Antiochian or OCA jurisdictions, yak about "Smells and Bells".
THAT ALWAYS revolts me. Why can't they SAY: INCENSE, FRAGRANCE< BEAUTY< MAJESTY of the Liturgy, etc. ???They don't WANT to acknowledge these high qualities of Orthodox services.
Instead they deliberately demean them with these trendy little phrases.Anyone else find that expression nauseating !?!
I never liked that sort of thing either, Barbara. It is on par with the irreverance of slang and other novelties in speech, which all have their root in man's desire to rebel against the established order which correctly sets the higher things above the lower. That is why I am not a republican or a democrat. I don't believe in cheap or automatic equality or "the entitlement of the masses". I am a monarchist and believe people should earn their place in society and any acknowledgment they want, and until they do their part and after they have achieved something, they should always show that they know their place. That means reverencing the priest, the deacon, and the bishop; honouring the elderly, magistrates, and using polite language rather than presumptuous familiarity with people that one has not in fact become familiar or in using familiar language in an inappropriate context. Such people that reject the old social graces and order do not value ceremony, formality, or ritual in either daily life or in the services of the Church and in Church life. They are essentially barbarians, yet they esteem themselves to be just being more "honest" and "genuine!" They also prefer, as we see readily among Protestants, to wear informal attire at Church. Go to any Charismatic or Pentecostal Church in summer and you will see people dressed in shorts, sleeveless shirts (essentially an undershirt!), and so forth. They pride themselves with the deluded idea that this proves that they are "Close to the Lord" and are able to sit with "childlike trust" in their "heavenly daddy's lap." I am not making this up. I have sat in such popular churches when i was a teenager and heard the preacher teach and "rejoice" in such language and ideas. It is all so truly revolting that I, too, find it nauseating just to remember what things were like back then--25 years ago for me now. To be fair, thankfully not all Protestants fall for that sort of thing, but an increasingly large number do. Still, many of the fundamentalist "old school" holiness movement churches forbid informal attire in church services, and even forbid TV, dancing, playing cards (which have their origin in fortune telling and the occult), or rock music, they also forbid mixed bathing of the sexes, and at church picnics everyone dresses modestly. These groups however are shrinking rapidly compared to 30 years ago. Needless to say such lifestyles are not popular anymore.
Barbara wrote:I am wondering the same : we are probably ALL curious to hear the LONG version of the story,
if and when you would feel up to it.At least the medium one ...
Was it actually PEOPLE who lured you to their Protestant habitats?
I mean, like, PEER PRESSURE of sorts that pulled you away from the Russian Church Abroad ?
Was that the epoch of Fr Steven _____ [mnn, I can't remember his last name] that you were chrismated at that All Saints of Russia parish ?
Are you sure you want to hear this? It is a little bit complicated. I don't think I have ever told it before. I grew up going to a protestant church called the Church of Christ and I was baptized when I was 11. In college, I was briefly involved in a cult led by a fellow named Kip McKean, who was convinced that his church was The True Church. I was baptized there because I wanted to be accepted, but I didn't really believe in it, so I left in a few months. I was really hurt by my experience there.
I did a lot of thinking and reading. Somewhere along the line I read something about evangelicals converting to the Orthodox Church, and this piqued my interest. I decided to visit an orthodox church and there was one just a few miles from my house. In 1999, I went to St. Luke's Antiochian Orthodox Church, and had a very positive experience. The greeter knew my brother, and he gave me some books about Orthodoxy, one by Frank Schaeffer (son of the famous Francis Schaeffer), and another by a Baptist preacher who had converted. The priest was a former Episcopal priest and was very friendly, and of course the service was all in English.
I did some more research and discovered an internet email group about orthodoxy which I joined, and a website called "orthodoxinfo.com", which looks pretty much today like it did 12 years ago. I became aware of ecumenism and the old calendar and ROCOR and Fr. Seraphim Rose, and that there was actually a Russian parish in Denver (All Saints of Russia). I visited it and was amazed - the iconography was incredible, these old Russian women with veils were lighting candles in front of icons, no pews, the deacon censing, and the service was almost all in Slavonic. I loved it. I didn't think anyone there spoke English, and no one talked to me at all the first time, but it was so incredible that I decided to keep going and to learn Russian. After going a few times, I noticed this guy that I initially thought was a hippie because of his long hair and beard, but was actually a deacon - Fr. Christopher (Johnson). I soon found out that all the priests and deacons there were American converts. The priest was Fr. Steven Allen and Fr. Alexey Young was also there, and there were some monks living in the basement. It was a magical time. I wish I could just stop the clock right there. I went to catechism class with Fr. Christopher and became a catechumen, and was chrismated by Fr. Steven a few month later. (I'm not sure why they didn't baptize me). About the same time I took a business trip to San Francisco and visited the cathedral there and venerated the relics of St. John of Shanghai. Also about the same time, I took a trip to Tulsa and visited the parish of Fr. Mark Gilstrap and had a nice talk with him. Now about this time (Spring of 2000), Fr. Steven and Fr. Christopher had some Sunday afternoon lectures about ecumenism. I believe that Fr. Steven actually took a trip to Suzdal and had a book about Metr. Valentine and ROAC.
Then everything crashed. The bishops of ROCOR proclaimed their intent to re-unite with the MP. Fr. Steven and Fr. Christopher couldn't in good faith remain there so they resigned and decided to start a new parish, and Fr. Christopher built a beautiful chapel in his basement. I met Fr. Gregory, who drove down from his monastery in Buena Vista. I think the new parish was named after the Transfiguration and it was under the Greek bishops in the Lamian synod. I and my girlfriend were baptized by Fr. Gregory (Orthodox-style - 3 immersions) and my godfather was John Mills. Dormition Skete, I believe is a copy of a church on Mt. Athos, and has gorgeous icons inside painted by Fr. Gregory. I think Fr. Steven was also baptized by Fr. Gregory, (because he was a Roman Catholic convert and had never received an Orthodox baptism before). I thought it was cool having 2 possible churches to visit.
But then something happened, and I don't understand what. There was some sort of rift between Fr. Gregory and Fr. Christopher, even though they were under the same bishop (I think Metr. Niphon). It might have been a personality conflict. Anyways, the rift really disturbed me and I was suddenly thinking that I was in a cult. My girlfriend and I broke up and she went back to her former church. I went back to All Saints and talked to the new priest, Fr. Boris, and he was understanding and welcome me back. Fr. Alexey was still there and I had a good talk with him. I remember thinking that Metr. Vitaly was still the First Hierarch and that he was almost a saint. I was called "devilish" by Fr. Steven and I haven't ever talked to him since, although I hope to some day. I also had an argument with John Mills over ecclesiology. I still had some of the Cyprianite mentality and he was hard-core - heretics don't have grace. He also called me "devilish". A few months later, Metr. Vitaly was forceably retired and Metr. Laurus took over. At that point, I couldn't stay in ROCOR anymore (my whole justification for going back was that Metr. Vitaly was still in charge). I went back to Fr. Christopher's chapel, but something felt odd, and I never took communion there again.
Then I got laid off from my job, and moved to Florida. The monks moved to Missouri and then to Holy Cross Monastery in WV. (I have never visited there but would like to some day). Fr. Steven moved to Dallas, and then to Michigan, where he is a priest. Fr. Christopher moved to Massachusetts and I think divorced his wife who became an atheist. I think he is still a priest in a ROCOR-MP church there (St. John the Russian). I don't know what happened to him - he was very hard-core. I think Fr. Alexey is in a ROCOR monastery in NY.
I didn't mean to write my whole life story here. I will stop for now and need to write another part later.
