Blessed Olga of Alaska - Beloved by the Alaskan natives.

DIscussion and News concerning Orthodox Churches in communion with those who have fallen into the heresies of Ecumenism, Renovationism, Sergianism, and Modernism, or those Traditional Orthodox Churches who are now involved with Name-Worshiping, or vagante jurisdictions. All Forum Rules apply. No polemics. No heated discussions. No name-calling.


Justin Kissel

Post by Justin Kissel »

Mousethief

I am apalled by the way people who know absolutely NOTHING about blessed Olga or the multitude of native Alaskans who are asking for her elevation are shooting off their mouths and attacking the OCA like it was a saint factory intent on elevating as many unworthy "saints" as possible.

  • I know a little more than "NOTHING"

  • I am appalled that you are being so presumptuous. I have just as much information about Olga as any other person on this forum. Probably more than most since I've actually taken the time to read all that I could find on her. If Orthodoc didn't want to discuss the matter, he shouldn't have brought the topic up. Or did he expect everyone to just accept everything without examination and that no one would have a contrary opinion?

  • And I apologize if you're offended, but what is one suppose to say when you see people trying to make some like Fr. Alexander Schmemann into saints? Call me ignorant, but it does seem like they tend to stray from a cautious, conservative approach (ie. Orthodox approach) on such things.

Is this the best "traditionalism" has to offer?

Yes, we're all just a bunch of jurisdiction-bashing, closed-minded fools. (I'm not putting those words into your mouth, I'm making a statement reflecting my own opinion).

Orthodoc

Didn't you read the account of her funeral?

I've read everything that's online--some things multiple times (since the subject has come up a few times). I've not read anything in book form. That's about as clear as I can get as to what I know and don't know.

your concept of what a saint is and the so called requirements for a saint seem more western than Orthodox.

Actually, my concept of sainthood is a bit "off" compared to the mainstream in Orthodoxy today. Not because it's too "western," but because it's too old. The recognition of saints (from laity to bishops to councils to hagiographical writings) has changed drastically from the first century to the twenty-first century. I hold to a set of beliefs about saints which is--I admit--from an earlier (Orthodox, not "western") time. I think you were being presumptuous and reading a lot into my words that weren't there, and you therefore thought I was thinking in a "western" manner...

Ever hear of localized saints?

What's that?

That's a joke. Yes, believe it or not, I have.

Any saint canonized by a specific Orthodox Church does not have to be recognized or venerated by all Orthodox Churches.

A point I think I've made about a half dozen times in the past 3 months on this forum (mostly regarding Saint Justin Popovich). /\

I don't know where you get the idea Fr Alexander Schmemann is being considered for sainthood.

Serge thinks he's a saint. So does a certain fringe OCA monastery. I saw a thread one time over at belief.net where every Orthodox Christian listed Alexander Schmemann among their list of people they thought were saints. How is someone's opinion "rumor"? Rumor is something you hear that isn't true, or something that's passed around that shouldn't be (though that's more like gossip).

Then why are you recognizing St Alexis Toth?

I didn't say that all recognitions of sainthood required centuries, I just said it was the norm. However, veneration at the local level normally begins rather quickly. Guess what? I'm the local level.

If so, you shouldn't be... going by the criteria you are exponding here.

I hope you can now see that you misunderstood what I was saying.

As stated previously, St Basil the Great was accepted as a saint immediately after his death.

Did you see when I said "most"? I said that, historically, most saints weren't officially (or whatever word you want to use) recognized for hundreds of years. I never said there wouldn't be Basil the Great's and Athanasius'. Again, hopefully you can now see that you misunderstood (and read a perceived "westernism" into) my thoughts.

Justin

Justin Kissel

Post by Justin Kissel »

PS. And since some seem so ready to presume (oddly while they simultaneously decry the presumptiveness of others), I'll clarify something. I do not think that my understanding of saints is better just because it is older. Actually, the opposite is true, it is my duty to conform my understanding to that of the Church as it now is, not to hold on to my beliefs just because they happen to match an earlier period. The faith handed on from the fathers is what I try to hold on to, not the faith as discovered through scholarly research and known in the living memory of the Church. Somehow, I have a feeling I'll still be judged (by mousethief and Orthodoc) for my perceived judging of others. Odd how that works, isn't it? :roll:

Justin Kissel

Post by Justin Kissel »

With further thought, the question arises: should such discussions take place in the first place? If we don't have enough information (if only the Natives can really know and we Pennsylvanians are clueless), then how can some (like the person who posted this thread) make such presumptuously assured statements? I guess what really gets to me is that I've been anything but nice and unconditionally forgiving of traditionalists of late. I have "apologized" (in the theological sense) for some of what goes on, but I have also been struggling with some of the stuff that goes on, in traditionalist groups. Perhaps the answer is to keep my mouth shut. I guess I knew that already. People will believe what they want to believe, and I doubt that I'm going to change anyone's mind.

OrthoDoc
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Post by OrthoDoc »

[Serge thinks he's a saint. So does a certain fringe OCA monastery. I saw a thread one time over at belief.net where every Orthodox Christian listed Alexander Schmemann among their list of people they thought were saints. ]

Gimme a break! Serge who? If it's the Serge I think you mean I have a corn on my little toe that has been there longer than Serge has been Orthodox! Besides,when was this 'Serge' elected primate of the OCA or official spokesperson for the OCA for that matter?

There are certain 'fringe' groups within ROCOR that already think Seraphim Rose is a saint. Does that make him a saint? Or does that justify that ROCOR is considering him for sainthood? Unless or until ROCOR makes and official announcement one way or another it is just gossip. Same with Alexander Schmemann. Every person in the OCA (including priests) just laughed when I asked them about Schmemenn.

[How is someone's opinion "rumor"? Rumor is something you hear that isn't true, or something that's passed around that shouldn't be (though that's more like gossip). ]

You gotta be kinding me! Someone's opinion is just that...someones opinion. Having an opinion on a certain issue does not make it either a fact or the truth. And certainly does not make if official!

[If we don't have enough information (if only the Natives can really know and we Pennsylvanians are clueless), then how can some (like the person who posted this thread) make such presumptuously assured statements?]

What assumptions? I thought you read everything there is to read about Blessed Olga including the website I quoted. Tell me, is there a website dedicated to Blessed Alexander Scmemenn? Can you show me any Icons of Schmemenn? How about Magnifications and Molebens?

Orthodox don't start writing Icons or composing Magnifications or Molebens based on presumptions.

[If Orthodoc didn't want to discuss the matter, he shouldn't have brought the topic up.]

Where have I refused to discuss the matter?

[- And I apologize if you're offended, but what is one suppose to say when you see people trying to make some like Fr. Alexander Schmemann into saints?]

Yeh. Based on the opinion of Serge and some fringe yet to be amed monastery and a few comments on belief.net. I have a friend that thinks the moon is made of green cheese. Does that make it true or official?

Orthodoc

Justin Kissel

Post by Justin Kissel »

Thanks for the thoughtful response. :roll:

Justin

PS. And yes, there are icons and such of people like Fr. Schmemann. One was even hanging in an OCA monastery. But I'm guessing that if I go into any more details I'll just be told to give you a break or told that I must be kidding. :|

bogoliubtsy
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Location: Russia

Post by bogoliubtsy »

My godfather related to me a discussion he had awhile back on the glorification of someone like Fr.Schmemann. Fr. Schmemann was an avid smoker... my godfather and others were pondering the meaning and development of the Icon and wondered about the prospect of their being an icon of Fr.Schmemann smoking a cigarette.
It was funnier hearing the story firsthand I suppose.

OrthoDoc
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Joined: Thu 13 March 2003 4:06 pm

Post by OrthoDoc »

[Fr. Schmemann was an avid smoker... my godfather and others were pondering the meaning and development of the Icon and wondered about the prospect of their being an icon of Fr.Schmemann smoking a cigarette.]

Oh Boy! Even the subject matter changes in order to continue the insults and put downs. It seems this site just thrives on character assassination, rumors, gossip, and down right lies. If this is representative of what ROCOR is, then all I can say is - How sad!

Think I'll stick to the other sites where at least there is a little more substance and proof to back up the smear campaigns. There is absolutely nothing here of value for me.

Orthodoc

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