Some thoughts about "Western Rite"

Discuss the holy Mysteries and the liturgical life of the Church such as the Hours, Vespers, Matins/Orthros, Typica, and the Divine Liturgy. All Forum Rules apply. No polemics. No heated discussions. No name-calling.
User avatar
Suaidan
Sr Member
Posts: 707
Joined: Thu 8 April 2004 2:31 pm
Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Autonomous Metropolia of the Americas
Location: Northeast PA

Points #1, 2, 3

Post by Suaidan »

1) all Orthodox liturgical worship, began in Jerusalem, and what they did there in the first century or thereabouts, where they weekly went physically to each PLACE where Jesus had walked and suffered and died and rose, and re-enacted those sacred events. the Holy Week agenda.
This basic, Jerusalem worship, was copied and spread throughout the whole Christian world, east and west and south and north, it was UNIVERSAL.
It was mostly done in Greek or Latin, but in the later monastic movement, the Coptic language was also used in those monasteries with mixed ethnic members, etc. And gradually, it began to be performed in some local languages, east and west.

The implication that there was one standard use by each of the twelve apostles is somewhat mystifying. By the second century we see a variety of practices in the Church by the second generation after the Apostles. While ALL the liturgies have their basis in the Liturgy of Jerusalem, the idea that all liturgies were the same is untenable. Firstly, even in the Gospels we find differences of emphasis. The ecclesial structures at Rome and Antioch were different. So why would the liturgy NOT be any different?

2) gradually, in each local region or nation, local differences in calendar, rituals, church disciplines and simply CUSTOMS connected to the worship or the local application of Orthodox life-principals, became...varied. Much of those differences, depended on the exact pre-Christian local pagan cultures.

I think the "pagan cultures" comment is just a slur. The simple fact is that the Church from East to West knew of the different liturgies and practices and was in peace and harmony.

3) and, gradually, east and west, there....naturally developed.....an amalgamation/unification/simplification process.... liturgically, a natural CENTRALIZATION . In the west, the Roman Rite ( how things were done in the Holy City of Old Rome), gradually replaced virtually all the local 'rites', and was often FORCED upon the locals. That development occured, before 1054, but continued after the Latin Schism.

Well, this isn't really accurate until the end of the 9th century, during the time when the first schism between East and West occurred, but even the Roman ritual had variants throughout the regions where it was prevalent. The real "solidification" of the ritual began to occur in the 12th century and was finally completed with the Council of Trent in the 16th. But even in the 10th and 11th centuries we find a flowering of ritual, such as the Mozarabic, the Ambrosian, and at least a half-dozen local variations of the Roman rite.

Further, the Council of Trent's "centralization" in fact lay waste to many Western customs which were perfectly Orthodox in origin and practice, including the removal of edifying liturgical texts such as the rich use of the Sequentiae.

Thus, if we follow Rdr Daniel's statement to its logical conclusion, his argument is that the 16th century Roman Catholics were right, since they did something to outwardly (and only superficially) resemble the natural unity in the Orthodox liturgy that did not exist in the West except artificially.

I will continue shortly.

Fr Joseph Suaidan (Suaiden, same guy)

User avatar
Suaidan
Sr Member
Posts: 707
Joined: Thu 8 April 2004 2:31 pm
Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Autonomous Metropolia of the Americas
Location: Northeast PA

Points #4,5,6,7

Post by Suaidan »

I have removed Rdr Daniel's use of colors, and will continue, though from here on down actual arguments start to run out.

4) these liturgical ...developments...according to what our church teaches,( the same as for the doctrinal expressions and the iconography and other aspects of our faith), was....guided by the Holy Spirit, BECAUSE WE ORTHODOX firmly believe that our Holy religion is a divinely revealed religion, and not man-made! ...& they expressed 'The Mind of The Church', and were a blessed and totally natural development.......So this amalgamation of the liturgical worship, was seen as BLESSED and not in any way, some sort of wrong or evil suppression of local or quaint folk-customs, etc. ....as now many advocates of the Western Rite, seem to suggest. Nor as some 'layering' of novel additions to the Early PURE Church worship'...which the mistaken later Protestants felt that THEY alone, had 'recovered'...i.e. by throwing out most of the rituals and worship of centuries!

I don't doubt that liturgical growth (I despise the word "development" because of its meaning in a Roman Catholic/Schmemmanite sense) was guided by the Holy Spirit. But I also don't understand how this is an argument against Western Rites. I know of no "Western Riter", Orthodox or not, who feels that the amalgation of the Orthodox liturgy was an "evil suppression of quaint folk-customs". I do feel that Trent's consolidation was incredibly wrong-headed, as it was motivated by a desire to stop Protestantism, if that makes any sense. To me it does not.

However, the West's consolidation was indeed a supression of local customs and in no way matches the path of the use of the Orthodox East. See the Papal Bull Quo Primum of 1570: "Hence, We decided to entrust this work to learned men of our selection. They very carefully collated all their work with the ancient codices in Our Vatican Library and with reliable, preserved or emended codices from elsewhere. Besides this, these men consulted the works of ancient and approved authors concerning the same sacred rites; and thus they have restored the Missal itself to the original form and rite of the holy Fathers... Let all everywhere adopt and observe what has been handed down by the Holy Roman Church, the Mother and Teacher of the other churches, and let Masses not be sung or read according to any other formula than that of this Missal published by Us. This ordinance applies henceforth, now, and forever, throughout all the provinces of the Christian world, to all patriarchs, cathedral churches, collegiate and parish churches... This new rite alone is to be used unless approval of the practice of saying Mass differently was given at the very time of the institution and confirmation of the church by Apostolic See at least 200 years ago, or unless there has prevailed a custom of a similar kind which has been continuously followed for a period of not less than 200 years, in which most cases We in no wise rescind their above-mentioned prerogative or custom.... All other of the churches referred to above, however, are hereby denied the use of other missals, which are to be discontinued entirely and absolutely; whereas, by this present Constitution, which will be valid henceforth, now, and forever, We order and enjoin that nothing must be added to Our recently published Missal, nothing omitted from it, nor anything whatsoever be changed within it under the penalty of Our displeasure. " http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius05/p5quopri.htm

5) also, as gradually occurred, there was a ...liturgical expanding...of the worship, from the earliest Christian worship which was mostly a Hebraic style of worship, chanting of the Psalms, to the addition of the poetic Kontakia of St. Romanus the Sweetsinger...i.e. our Orthodox liturgical worship was always expanding and developing and was ALIVE and in movement., and centered in the monastery worship.

This is irrelevant, as the Hebraic roots of ALL the Orthodox Rites can be easily discerned.

6) as time went on, with the great growth and wide accepting of the Monastic Institution, what was liturgically done in famous old coenobitic monasteries, became the norm for each national Orthodox Church, which used that 'Typicon' of a particular monastery. That was what happened in the east, but in the west, I am not certain.

The development took the same form in East and West until the schism.

7) worship expresses belief/doctrine. That is very Orthodox. That is exactly why, we should fear, to change our worship. This Western Rite three-ring circus, does change it. Isn't that what the ecumenist betrayers of our faith, want? I really think so.

But we have asked no one to change their worship; we have asked only the right to preserve our own. Those genuine Orthodox who began the use of the Western rite in the 1800's have advanced in translation and practice to the point where they have restored the ancient forms of worship, used them as their own, and handed them to their children. In this way, they can demonstrate the Truth of Orthodoxy to those who are trapped in the ecumenist "ethnic" paradigm ("I am Anglo, so I am Anglican, he is Mexican, so he is Catholic, he is Greek, so he is Orthodox") and return them to the faith of their ancient ancestors, just as it was lived a thousand years ago, and is already lived in many places today.

As an aside, thank God for those who looked past the "ethnicity" of Orthodoxy for the sake of the truth (indeed, this is how I myself converted) but for the sake of those who cannot, why make them cross a line they cannot perceive a reason to cross? Is not becoming Orthodox difficult enough? I am Orthodox; I am not a pretend Greek, nor a pretend Russian. And yet actual Russians and Greeks always seem fascinated to learn of Orthodoxy's Western Patrimony-- why is it that certain converts are so hostile? My only guess is that this is because to some degree their understanding of Orthodoxy is trapped in an ethnic paradigm from which they must escape, because it is not of Christ, nor the Church His Holy Bride. The truth of Orthodoxy is for all mankind that is willing to accept it.

What Roman Catholic fasts half the year? What Anglican strives to preserve the Holy Icons in the way the Orthodox do? And most importantly, isn't the presence of GRACE in the True Mysteries what changes us, as well as prayer? Do the rites save us, or does Christ? Can anyone who is truly Orthodox really believe that if the faith is preserved, regardless of Western or Eastern rite, that their life is not going to change substantially from the dregs of earthly life in which they once lived?

Fr Joseph Suaidan (Suaiden, same guy)

User avatar
Suaidan
Sr Member
Posts: 707
Joined: Thu 8 April 2004 2:31 pm
Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Autonomous Metropolia of the Americas
Location: Northeast PA

Points #8, 9, 10, 11

Post by Suaidan »

8 ) then came the ...process...of the splitting of the west away from the Universal Church, culminating in the official separation date of 1054 AD.

This is not really a point, so I will leave it be.

9) we Orthodox, believe that at that event, the west ...lost grace, and it...gradually became debased and disfigured in all aspects of it's church life, including it's worship. It had fallen into many heresies, papal-supremacy among it's chief sins. It's worship reflects these heresies.

Which is not relevant to someone using a pre-schism rite.

10) over the long sad centuries since that western schism, the Latin Roman-Rite, west has attacked our Orthodox people and church, by many vile and evil means: wars of invasion and occupation, destruction of Orthodox churches and holy places and holy things, and finally by their trickery of their satanic, 'Unia'..i.e. allowing (conquered and suppressed), Orthodox populations to keep our peculiar and strange 'Eastern Rites',& even our married priests keeping their wives, ( for awhile anyway!), while being 100% submitted to their despicable Pope, 'The Vicar of Christ', and all their Romish skullduggery and power machinations, and being gradually Latinized, bit by bit, removing/changing/CORRUPTING our peculiar 'Eastern' worship (in reality, our UNIVERSAL Christian worship of the ages before the Latin Schism!) in favour of their, debased, pure Roman Rite...i.e. the process of ..becoming 'good Roman Catholics.'

"UNIVERSAL Christian Worship"? You see, this is why so much of the invective aimed at the "Western Rite" is so difficult to deal with. First we have to deal with the main point-- that the author is blaming Western Orthodox of the present day for the sins of the heretical Roman Catholics. I am not sure what precisely we have to apologize for or defend. We have nothing to do with them. But then, in a dishonest, sneaky fashion, the author slips in a claim of "UNIVERSAL Christian worship of the ages". That's not true, it's a lie, it doesn't match with the teaching of the Western Fathers, and the author reveals his own Papist-like universalism, which is nothing but forced uniformity based on a lie.

The beauty and purity of the Eastern Orthodox Liturgy is enough that it does NOT NEED LIES TO DEFEND IT.

11) so, why, today, long after all that has transpired since 1054, should we Orthodox accept as somehow normal or right, this 'Western Rite' experiment?...this foreign invasion of our sacred temples and worship?

"Foreign invasion"? This is just ridiculous. Who is invading anyone's temples? How can this be taken seriously as an argument coming from an Orthodox Christian? Are we coming with the Templars and the Jesuits to pillage the countryside? The author is writing as someone living in a fantasy world.

Fr Joseph Suaidan (Suaiden, same guy)

User avatar
Priest Siluan
Moderator
Posts: 1939
Joined: Wed 29 September 2004 7:53 pm
Faith: Russian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: RTOC
Location: Argentina
Contact:

Re: Some thoughts about "Western Rite"

Post by Priest Siluan »

What do you think about the valuable opinion of Fr. Placide Desseilles opinion, a former Roman Catholic, who was abbot of France's largest Benedictine Monastery and became Orthodox (he is in Ecumenical Patriarchate)?

http://centralpennsylvaniaorthodox.word ... orthodoxy/

User avatar
Suaidan
Sr Member
Posts: 707
Joined: Thu 8 April 2004 2:31 pm
Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Autonomous Metropolia of the Americas
Location: Northeast PA

Re: Some thoughts about "Western Rite"

Post by Suaidan »

Blagoslovite.

Priest Siluan wrote:

What do you think about the valuable opinion of Fr. Placide Desseilles opinion, a former Roman Catholic, who was abbot of France's largest Benedictine Monastery and became Orthodox (he is in Ecumenical Patriarchate)?

http://centralpennsylvaniaorthodox.word ... orthodoxy/

He became a Uniate first, then "eased" his way into "Orthodoxy" under the Patriarchate.
http://logismoitouaaron.blogspot.com/20 ... -west.html

The man quoting him sounds just as Roman Catholic. To be honest both the author you quoted and the priest he cited sound sound overly emotional, like pious old ladies who have just read a pious book. If there was an argument to answer I would argue it. But someone's feelings about the grandeur of the eastern liturgy, and some fellow spending too much time watching censers swing leave me nothing of substance to discuss.

That is what I think.

Fr Joseph Suaidan (Suaiden, same guy)

User avatar
Suaidan
Sr Member
Posts: 707
Joined: Thu 8 April 2004 2:31 pm
Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Autonomous Metropolia of the Americas
Location: Northeast PA

The rest of the points....

Post by Suaidan »

I will get to tomorrow.

Fr Joseph Suaidan (Suaiden, same guy)

User avatar
Priest Siluan
Moderator
Posts: 1939
Joined: Wed 29 September 2004 7:53 pm
Faith: Russian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: RTOC
Location: Argentina
Contact:

Re: Some thoughts about "Western Rite"

Post by Priest Siluan »

I read some years ago a very interesting Interview to Matushka Anastasia Shatilova by Portal-Credo, she said St. Philaret was against the so-called Wester Rite, now this interview was posted on a ROCOR-A blog in a "Google-traslation" English.

http://rocorrefugeesreadmore.blogspot.c ... story.html

Post Reply