Fasting = one meal per day?

[Maria]

I suppose maybe I should clarify what I say in the context of the purpose of this part of the forum. Yes, it's good to ask questions in order to learn more about Orthodox praxis. So questions about how common the observance of the one meal rule are fine if they are merely seeking information. But Jason's last post was tending towards a kind of judgment of those who appear to be too lax. Well listen up: most Orthodox are very lax by the standards of yesteryear, and I'm talking about the True Orthodox here! Fr Steven Allen in a video interview with the Serbian True Orthodox made a wonderful statement about what it means to be True Orthodox:

We are not the best Orthodox. We are the worst Orthodox! But … we are Orthodox.

If we want to be strict, we should focus on being strict in our love for the Truth. This means uncompromising strictness with respect to dogmatic correctness. This means no fellowship with those who dilute the faith in even the least degree, as the World Orthodox are doing. But we don't approach asceticism in the same way. Asceticism is about how we take this uncompromised Truth and attempt to realize it in our everyday lives. Here the struggle is very severe, and we must recognize how feeble we are and how hard it is to come up to even a tiny fraction of the achievements of the saints. At this point, idle talk about how we don't observe the canons strictly become dangerous. Yes, we fall short, but how do you hope to fix that by pointing fingers at everyone else for not keeping the one meal a day rule? By all means keep it yourself, but don't make a big deal out of it and thereby drive others away from the Church!

Once again, thanks for your clarification.

Yes, idle chat is not good for the soul as it leads to dissipation. During the Lenten periods we are to refrain from eating certain foods to train our tongues to avoid saying idle or sinful things. Although custody of the senses is considered a monastic practice in the West, it is essential for all Christians. We must guard all our senses: our lips, taste buds, smell, ears, eyes, and our sense of touch especially during Lenten times. Thus many spiritual fathers urge the faithful to avoid watching TV and movies, and even to refrain from listening to music except for sacred chant. However, even then, these spiritual fathers recognize that some people need to listen to music such as symphonies or may even have a job that requires such viewing/listening/playing of instruments, so penitents may be given different advice. Hence, it is not good to share what our spiritual fathers have told us in private.

[Maria]

In general, Orthodox Christians, including those of Worldwide Orthodoxy, are encouraged to avoid the Gluttony Palaces (all you can eat) restaurants during Lenten times as those soup and salad restaurants are a definite occasion of sin.

What point is it to fast during the day, and then do as the Muslims do, and eat during the evening until one is exploding?

[JHunt777]

I suppose maybe I should clarify what I say in the context of the purpose of this part of the forum. Yes, it's good to ask questions in order to learn more about Orthodox praxis. So questions about how common the observance of the one meal rule are fine if they are merely seeking information. But Jason's last post was tending towards a kind of judgment of those who appear to be too lax. Well listen up: most Orthodox are very lax by the standards of yesteryear, and I'm talking about the True Orthodox here! Fr Steven Allen in a video interview with the Serbian True Orthodox made a wonderful statement about what it means to be True Orthodox:

We are not the best Orthodox. We are the worst Orthodox! But … we are Orthodox.

If we want to be strict, we should focus on being strict in our love for the Truth. This means uncompromising strictness with respect to dogmatic correctness. This means no fellowship with those who dilute the faith in even the least degree, as the World Orthodox are doing. But we don't approach asceticism in the same way. Asceticism is about how we take this uncompromised Truth and attempt to realize it in our everyday lives. Here the struggle is very severe, and we must recognize how feeble we are and how hard it is to come up to even a tiny fraction of the achievements of the saints. At this point, idle talk about how we don't observe the canons strictly become dangerous. Yes, we fall short, but how do you hope to fix that by pointing fingers at everyone else for not keeping the one meal a day rule? By all means keep it yourself, but don't make a big deal out of it and thereby drive others away from the Church!

Dear Jonathan, I think if you read my posts again in this thread you will see that I do not anywhere express interest in how people individually fast, or with how strict or lax people here are with respect to fasting. Neither did I lament my own shortcomings, boast of some kind of achievements on my part, or speak disrespectfully of those who cannot fast as well as others. I qualified my first post with the acknowledgment that one’s spiritual father may relax the fasting requirements if/when the spiritual father considers it necessary to do so, and in my next post I made it clear that one person is not necessarily any more holy or more spiritually advanced than another just by keeping a more rigorous bodily fast. I did mention the fasting guidelines which St. Gregory Palamas (and other Fathers) referred to in their public homilies to the laity, which are also the guidelines that Met Kallistos (Ware) specifies at the beginning of the Lenten Triodion as being held in common by Orthodox throughout the centuries. I was if the variou "TOC/GOC" groups also follow such traditional guidelines as has been observed universally in the past. Again, I am interested in what is taught publically regarding this aspect of Orthopraxis in the "TOC/GOC" groups and am not interested in how well or how poorly individuals here may follow these guidelines.

We should not fear causing a scandal by speaking of the standards to which Orthodox Christians are called. Such fear, if we are consistent, would cause us to cease speaking of the saints altogether since their ways of life are a tremendous reproach to most of us, myself included. We are called to be like Christ, and the Lord himself commands us to be perfect as his Father in heaven is perfect. Such lofty goals should humble us when we fall short and entice our zeal when we are struggling. If we fall short now, if we fail now, with God’s help tomorrow we can perhaps make a bit of progress.

In any case, since this thread doesn’t seem to be going anywhere, I will not keep soliciting responses. I would, however, be a bit more cautious in speaking of Orthodoxy vs. Orthopraxy. Both are necessary for salvation and neither is of much value without the other. If a person thinks that he is “saved” because he has the right dogmas, or because he is not like “those heretics over there”, and yet he does not have a corresponding holy manner of life, then he just as deluded as those who think they can “be a good person” outside of the Church and still enter the heavenly kingdom.

[jgress]

Personally, I think your tone is preachy and completely inappropriate, given that you are not even a member of the True Orthodox Church, let alone a priest or someone otherwise authorized to give instruction. You said "I think it a shame if this important guideline were to be disregarded as on longer suitable for universal practice". How is that not preaching to us? Who are you to determine what is suitable or not for our days? You speak as if you are one of us, and even someone who has earned the right to pronounce on what's good and bad practice, but you are not one of us and have not earned that right. If you want to be welcome here, you should adopt an appropriate attitude of humility. Asking us about to what extent we observe the canonical practice is reasonable, but presuming to lecture us on the benefits of the practice is not.

Others here are free to disagree with me, of course. I am merely explaining what is going through my own mind when reading your recent posts.

Having said that, I agree with you that it is good to be aware of what the canonical practice is. Fr Steven Allen spoke once of an old Romanian woman in his parish who still kept that rule into her old age. I would certainly venture to say that many people in the TOC, including perhaps some priests, are not even aware of what the canonical norm is. In a certain sense I would also say it's lamentable that this practice has fallen into disuse, but only in the general context of the decline in piety and holiness. And I stand by my statement that there is actually a distinction between Orthodoxy and Orthopraxy when it comes to the distinction between akriveia and oikonomia. Simply put, in dogma, there is no such thing as oikonomia; there is no sense in which the confession of the faith needs to be altered according to the times. In praxis, on the other hand, we maintain a distinction between the strict ideal and the practical aims of our everyday struggle to live virtuously. Therefore, it is quite acceptable to say that the general observance of one meal a day on strict fast days may no longer be appropriate to our times. That kind of fasting may have been easy for laymen of St Gregory Palamas' day, but for most of us, if not for Jason, it is probably much too difficult, and it would spiritually counterproductive to attempt it.

[timothyvargas]

From the number of views vs. the lack of responses in this thread, and from the duration of time in which this thread has been open (1.5 yrs), am I to understand that none of the TOC/GOC groups represented here instruct their faithful in general to eat only one meal per day on fast days?

Thank you Jason for the question. In my opinion it is an important issue for all of us, which is a weapon to be used against the evil one.

For what is taught by the Holy Synod in North America:

The True Vine, issue #42; call 617-323-6379; Included:
On Fasting by Met. Ephraim of Boston;
New Martyr John;
An Historical Study Concerning the Church-Appointed Fasts by St. Nectarios of Aegina; Lenten Encyclical, 2008 by Met. Ephraim;
Nativity Fast Encyclical, 2008 by Met. Ephraim;
Patristic Texts on Fasting;
The Truth Concerning Vladyka John of Shanghai, by Protopresbyter Valery Lukianov; Saint John Maximovitch, Archbishop of San Francisco, by Holy Transfiguration Monastery;
Hymns in honor of St. John Maximovitch.
http://www.homb.org/publications/docs/t ... atalog.pdf
http://www.homb.org/resources/docs/prot ... cal-09.pdf

Following in the footsteps of our holy fathers...

[Maria]

I have to agree with Jonathan.

We are to fast to the best of our ability under the guidance of our spiritual father.
And we are to fast in secret per the gospel admonition.

Often those who are new in the faith can fall into prelest or poor health if they observe the strict fast.
Furthermore, they can turn people away from Orthodoxy by being inhospitable.
Instead, it is better for them to eat what is placed before them in a spirit of humility and sincere hospitality.

[joasia]

Timothy, fasting is not a weapon, it's a tool for ourselves. It's a spiritual exercise which we require just like athletes that use their exercise programs to strengthen their abilities. The Holy Cross, love and prayer are the weapons against the evil one. Of course, all of this is tied up with faith.

JHunt777 wrote:

If a person thinks that he is “saved” because he has the right dogmas, or because he is not like “those heretics over there”, and yet he does not have a corresponding holy manner of life, then he just as deluded as those who think they can “be a good person” outside of the Church and still enter the heavenly kingdom.

It sounds to me as if you are purposely bringing up the dogma issue to argue about the differences between the TOC and pseudo-orthodox.

There's also the other side of the coin. Those who fast like ascetics, in the world, or in a monastery, but commemorate a heretic Patriarch, who defies the Holy Canons and dogmas, think they are in the true Church of Christ, are deluded. Having the right dogmas is a good starting point of understanding what Christ established with the Holy Apostles and the holy fathers that followed, for His Church. With that comes spiritual knowledge of repentance that cultivates humility. Jesus Christ said, repent for the Kingdom of God is near. He didn't say fast.

All I know is we don't eat meat and dairy products and on more strict days oil. This is the rule. And to add another thought, when we have Sunday Liturgy, during Lent, and then Trapeza is prepared, we don't wait until 3 pm or 6 pm to eat. We eat by 12 pm or 1 pm, depending how much time it will take to set it up. Is this lax compared to St. Gregory Palamas' time? I don't think so. I think that in his time, they were also not doing as much as the Christians in the 3rd century, for example. I say this from a logical point of view that 1000 years later, people were not as strict and perhaps that's why he wrote his homilies. The saints didn't need to address certain subjects if the people were following them, did they?

I think the homilies are very insightful about the times they lived in because of what subjects they wrote about.

I read a story about a monk elder who went, with his disciple to visit another monk. That monk offered them something to drink and eat. And the elder accepted and thanked God. His disciple ate too since his elder instructed him to. But, these two monks weren't suppose to eat anything until sunset or for that whole day. I can't remember. On the way back, the disciple wanted to drink some water from a stream, but the elder forbid him. The disciple was confused and asked him why he can't because they just ate and drank. The elder explained that they are observing their fast, but because the other monk offered them something, they should not refuse out of love, but that is for the sake of the other person and the hospitality they offered out of love.

Does someone remember this story? I gained a lot of understanding from this because I read it when I was gung-ho about fasting and thinking that it is a virtue. This is not the virtue. Humility is. And humility is the outcome of true repentance. And this helps in understanding the spiritual significance of fasting.