Father Seraphim Rose

[Pravoslavnik]

I am certainly no authority on this subject, but I sincerely believe that both Tsar Nicholas II and Father Seraphim Rose are saints of the Orthodox Church. Regarding Tsar Nicholas II, my impression is that few people really know much about the man. From reading his correspondence and his secular biographies, I have long had the impression that he was a very devout, good Orthodox Tsar-- far different from the "Bloody Nicholas" depicted by the Bolshevik propaganda that passes for Russian history in the modern world. The Bolsheviks certainly needed to vilify the Tsar to justify their own Satanic behavior-- which included the decision by Lenin and the Central Committee to have the Tsar and his young children executed at Ekaterinberg. Tsar Nicholas had an opportunity to flee from the Bolsheviks while he was residing at Tsarskoe Selo in 1917-- but he chose to remain in Russia and to patiently endure his fate. The Tsar was born on the day of St. Job the Righteous, and was told in his youth by an Orthodox seer that this was a portent that he-- literally, the wealthiest man in the world-- was destined to suffer at the hands of the Evil One, even as the Righteous Job had once suffered, losing all of his earthly possessions and even his own children.

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     As for Father Seraphim Rose, those who doubt his sanctity should read his biography.  There are many signs of sanctity in his life and works.  The man was entirely dedicated to God and to humanity.  Deer sat around his grave after his burial.  Most importantly, he was blessed by St. John to establish his monastery at Platina, and-- if I am not mistaken-- was originally ordained as a Reader in the ROCOR by St. John--rather unusual for an American "Bohemian" at that time in history.  Some have written that saints are "made by God," which is, of course, true.   But who among us would deny that the saints are glorified and venerated by those of us who constitute the "Church?"

[Catherine5]

I emphatically disagree about Fr Seraphim [Rose]. I see him as ordinary person and not a saint. The most remarkable thing about him is that after he found Orthodoxy in that same San Francisco Old Cathedral, he was able to get out of a horrible homosexual state. This is something VERY rare indeed.

I opened a box the other day and found an article from 1994 that had on the back a big writeup on a 'Christian' organization called Promise Keepers, which had made its debut. The idea was a men's group to reaffirm the necessity of keeping their marriage vows to their wives.
[Ironically Mark Sanford, the governor who was all over the international news for months last year for an aberration from those ideals, was supposedly a dedicated member of that organization.] The point here is that a Protestant minister's comment below it, perhaps regarding a previous article in that paper, showed how back even in 1994, Protestant groups were VERY strongly dedicated to getting rid of that vice. The minister wrote that homosexuality is Always BAD and should never be condoned.

The only to free oneself, he said, is by the power of prayer to Jesus Christ. I assume that is the Protestant approach over all.

But today no one cares. Protestant denominations have caved in, and have reeled back those fiery denunciations.
The Orthodox have not broadcast a clearcut position as the Protestants have. In fact, with few exceptions, especially the World Orthodox have been VERY VERY SILENT!
The True Orthodox have to differentiate themselves by clear pronouncements.

So I say that blight on Fr Seraphim [Rose]'s record is so horrendous that I have never been able to look at his picture on those books when I learned about it from a book written by his own family members. I covered the cover picture of "Not of This World" with a holy picture so I wouldn't have to see that rather unpleasant expression on his face. Neither will I read a word he wrote.
I know I am extreme in my reaction. But I don't want any negative impact from what I perceive as impurity to disrupt my peace.

I feel that Fr Seraphim's special purpose may have been to encourage potential Orthodox converts to leave their homosexuality: "I got out this Devil's Vise of this bad vice: so therefore can those in today's world who are afflicted with it as well."

On a less heavy note, what about an amnesty for Incognito by the way? He had a lively thread here, but vanished.

[Ian]

On a less heavy note, what about an amnesty for Incognito by the way? He had a lively thread here, but vanished.

Who knows, his/her posts in this thread varied wildly, from insisting on monastic like obedience for all Orthodox, to what seemed to me, to be open doubts about Orthodoxy itself.

[Catherine5]

Hi Ian, I'm glad to see you back after maybe making a decision in favor of the general trend of True Orthodox Churches? Glad to hear it if so.

Well I for one would defend Incognito whatever his / her number was. That person is baring their soul. He or she was not seeking to ridicule Orthodoxy but bring up some observations made over - it sounds like - many, many years.
In short, he/she is a seasoned observer of the scene.
So, what about thinking whether we should listen here and there, rather than assume he/she has emotional problems. The person seems quite intelligent and made really good points, particularly about the need for the True Orthodox to UNITE. Perhaps he/ she drew out the picture a little comically, but i assume that was to bring the problem of division more clearly to readers' eyes.

I could see after re=reading this thread, that he/she means well.

I would invite him/her back if it were my decision.
I don't have any idea what others think.
As long as he/she agrees to not offend people on here or our particular hierarchs. What about with that stipulation he/she could be - I'm using the term very jokingly -
rehabilitated!

It's Great lent, after all, so I think we could extend ourselves to be magnanimous in inviting him/her back.
The person is clearly concerned with obedience, which is RIGHT! He/she means obedience to one's spiritual father is required. He didn't say laity should obey schoolteachers or earthly bosses to the letter. He or she is absolutely right to encourage the former, because obedience is a real key to spiritual progress.

This emphasis of his/hers tells us he /she is a conscientious person striving hard for salvation.

So there is nothing for anyone to be afraid of if he/she expresses his opinions. On the contrary if he/she were a slack layperson, then why should we listen to him/her?

[Anastasios]

\
So I say that blight on Fr Seraphim [Rose]'s record is so horrendous that I have never been able to look at his picture on those books when I learned about it from a book written by his own family members. I covered the cover picture of "Not of This World" with a holy picture so I wouldn't have to see that rather unpleasant expression on his face. Neither will I read a word he wrote.
I know I am extreme in my reaction. But I don't want any negative impact from what I perceive as impurity to disrupt my peace.

I feel that Fr Seraphim's special purpose may have been to encourage potential Orthodox converts to leave their homosexuality: "I got out this Devil's Vise of this bad vice: so therefore can those in today's world who are afflicted with it as well."

Forgive me if I misunderstand you, but are you saying that because Fr Seraphim, before he was Orthodox, was a homosexual, you can't look at his picture? And you won't read what he wrote?

Will you not read St Paul's Epistles, because he was a murderer?

I must confess, I simply don't understand this position at all. It seems to deny the grace of God to transform man. Fr Seraphim was a pious and probably holy person. God's grace purified him. His words breathed divine grace. I don't think he was perfect, but his writings and life are very profitable for Orthodox to learn and study. Some of the greatest saints were the worst sinners, like St Mary of Egypt. Will you not kiss her icon, because she was formerly a prostitute?

[Pravoslavnik]

Catherine,

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 With all due respect, and friendship in Christ, I must emphatically disagree with your judgment of Father Seraphim Rose.  As Father Anastasios has correctly pointed out, the history of the Orthodox Church is replete with the lives of saints who were once sinners.  Consider, for example, the life of blessed St. Augustine of Hippo, or that of St. Mary of Egypt, a former harlot.  With God, all things are possible.  I find it absolutely remarkable that a non-Russian, beatnik scholar living in San Francisco in the 1960s would have ended his life laboring for many years in Orthodox acesticism and monasticism in the mountains near Platina, California-- a humbling example to us all.

[Catherine5]

Yes, Father, with all respect, that is what I said. I don't expect any current readers to agree with me. I felt though, that someday some reader may have the same reaction that I do and would feel better that someone expressed this.
Maybe this is why I like Icongnito- I mean Incognito. He expressed what I thought about Fr Seraphim and added much wonderful insight -wonderful to me maybe alone here!

I also have traveled widely in Russia. A very devout Russian Orthodox man said to me a different point which put Fr Seraphim into a much clearer perspective. This man was the first person to be objective after so many in America who were adulatory toward Fr. Seraphim. He spoke not against Fr Seraphim, but spoke the truth of probably what many Russians feel. After I never looked at Fr Seraphim's writings again.

He volunteered that Fr Seraphim was such a hit in Russia for one reason only: that he was an AMERICAN who converted and wrote about Russian Orthodoxy. [A little like the Tom Hanks phenomenon, but obviously on a higher, academic level.]

Otherwise, he said, there was not much, if anything, new in Fr Seraphim's writing.
In short not special for someone already in the Church who has read those original writings in Russian which Fr Seraphim quoted. He said he himself would only read the Optina Elders, St Theophan and all the Russian Saints' writings. He said that Fr Seraphim's writings were entry level, so why not go to the original sources?

It's understandable that for someone in America who has never seen a real Russian Orthodox monk, the sight of Fr Seraphim might have been revelatory.
But that's why I argue that his example is mainly for those here.

I agree with Incognito's statement that the impetus to canonize Fr Seraphim is mainly from the MP and Platina groups. I thought Incognito's explanation is superbly insightful that because of his degrees and credentials, including a long list of writings, Fr Seraphim impresses the Russian community in Russia or maybe recent emigres here. Personally I was not impressed by him. Probably because I can't relate to beatniks in general, or libertines.

Are we not all entitled to our own opinions?! This is not only mine, though.
In the late 1990's or maybe a little later, I overheard someone directly ask the Abbot of St Paisius Abbey in Forestville, a Fr Dorotheus, whether or not Fr Seraphim was a saint. His answer, with a patient smile and roll of the eyes -

"Fr Seraphim was JUST a righteous monk. Nothing more."