From The Evergetinos
Likewise, the brother of the Lord, St. James, says: "If any man should think himself religious, that is, devout, and does not bridle his tongue, but misleads his heart into placing confidence in such faith, he is not thinking correctly and thereby fails to be benefited by religion; for 'faith, if it hath not works, is dead' (St. James 2:17)."
Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. (Ps. 50)
Inco, you read this book and yet deny the explanations of the activity of the persecutions of the soul. You read this book and tell me to read it, but in it, they give explanations of that which you refute. Are you a Protestant that picks and chooses what serves his purpose? Everything must be examined and to ignore the majority of the Orthodox teachings...which are even explained in a book you recommend, makes me think that you are deeply confused.
From The Evergetinos
A. From the Life of St. Anthony the Great
St. Anthony the Great was once preparing to eat at his normal time; according to custom, he stood to pray. It was then the ninth hour. But at that very moment he felt himself somehow carried off spiritually. And this unusual thing took place: While he was standing there, he looked on himself, as though he had left his body, and his soul was taken into the air by several beings. After this, he saw a number of fearful and ugly creatures standing in front of him in the air, trying to keep him from passing.
Those who were guiding his soul began to wrangle with these frightening creatures, who were asking for an account of the soul which they were accompanying and whether it was responsible to them for some debt. While the latter wanted to begin their assessment from St. Anthony's birth, those who were accompanying him stopped them, saying:'Whatever errors Anthony committed from his birth have been erased away by the Lord; however, all of his deeds from the time that he became a monk and dedicated himself to God you may examine."
Though the demons accused Anthony, they could not prove their accusations; so his path remained free of impediments. Immediately he saw himself return to his body, and he revived. And St. Anthony became as he had earlier been.
However, such was his agitation that he forgot to eat, and he passed the rest of the day and the whole night groaning and praying.
He was stunned when he reflected on how many temptations we must combat and what trials one must endure to pass by the air-borne demons. And he thought that this must be the meaning of the words of the Apostle Paul: "According to the prince of the power of the air" (Ephesians 2:2).
For this power alone belongs to the enemy of our souls, that is, to war against us and try to impede those souls ascending into Heaven. Thus St. Paul counsels us with even greater insistence, saying: "Take unto yourself the whole armor of God so that you can withstand the devil on that wicked day, that the enemy might be brought to shame and thus have to say of you nothing dishonorable" (Ephesians 6:13).
"Anthony, arise. Come out from your cell and look"
Indeed, St. Anthony the Great went out (for he knew what voices he should heed) and, having lifted his gaze up to Heaven, saw the following vision.
A tall and fearful creature, horrible in form, was standing straight up. His height seemed to reach up to the clouds, while a multitude of creatures flew around him, as though they had feathers. He would stretch out his hand and some of these he prevented from flying, while others succeeded in passing by and flying higher, continuing on their path without obstruction. This immensely tall demon would grit his teeth over those who escaped him; but, on the contrary, he would rejoice over those who drew near and were knocked down.
Forthwith St. Anthony heard a voice:
"Anthony, try to digest all that you have seen. And thereupon he cleansed his mind and reflected on what he had seen. It was the passage of souls into Heaven, and the immensely tall and frightening wild man, who was standing erect, was the Devil, who despises the Faithful. He takes hold of those who were guilty of sins and tries to prevent them from passing. Those who did not in their lives heed his counsel, however, he cannot hold, and for this reason such persons succeed in soaring above him and making their way to Heaven. When St. Anthony the Great saw this vision, it reminded him of the earlier one that he had seen, and he struggled daily, thereafter, to excel in the virtuous life.
Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. (Ps. 50)
joasia wrote:From The Evergetinos
Likewise, the brother of the Lord, St. James, says: "If any man should think himself religious, that is, devout, and does not bridle his tongue, but misleads his heart into placing confidence in such faith, he is not thinking correctly and thereby fails to be benefited by religion; for 'faith, if it hath not works, is dead' (St. James 2:17)."
What does that have to do with obedience?
joasia wrote:Inco, you read this book and yet deny the explanations of the activity of the persecutions of the soul. You read this book and tell me to read it, but in it, they give explanations of that which you refute. Are you a Protestant that picks and chooses what serves his purpose? Everything must be examined and to ignore the majority of the Orthodox teachings...which are even explained in a book you recommend, makes me think that you are deeply confused.
Don't listen to me. Listen to the Evergetinos volume on obedience. You will see that everything I said about obedience is confirmed in that volume. Nobody disputes the validity of those teachings and sources.
joasia wrote:From The Evergetinos
Which volume? Which page?
joasia wrote:A. From the Life of St. Anthony the Great
St. Anthony the Great was once preparing to eat at his normal time; according to custom, he stood to pray. It was then the ninth hour. But at that very moment he felt himself somehow carried off spiritually. And this unusual thing took place: While he was standing there, he looked on himself, as though he had left his body, and his soul was taken into the air by several beings. After this, he saw a number of fearful and ugly creatures standing in front of him in the air, trying to keep him from passing.Those who were guiding his soul began to wrangle with these frightening creatures, who were asking for an account of the soul which they were accompanying and whether it was responsible to them for some debt. While the latter wanted to begin their assessment from St. Anthony's birth, those who were accompanying him stopped them, saying:'Whatever errors Anthony committed from his birth have been erased away by the Lord; however, all of his deeds from the time that he became a monk and dedicated himself to God you may examine."
Though the demons accused Anthony, they could not prove their accusations; so his path remained free of impediments. Immediately he saw himself return to his body, and he revived. And St. Anthony became as he had earlier been.
However, such was his agitation that he forgot to eat, and he passed the rest of the day and the whole night groaning and praying.
He was stunned when he reflected on how many temptations we must combat and what trials one must endure to pass by the air-borne demons. And he thought that this must be the meaning of the words of the Apostle Paul: "According to the prince of the power of the air" (Ephesians 2:2).
For this power alone belongs to the enemy of our souls, that is, to war against us and try to impede those souls ascending into Heaven. Thus St. Paul counsels us with even greater insistence, saying: "Take unto yourself the whole armor of God so that you can withstand the devil on that wicked day, that the enemy might be brought to shame and thus have to say of you nothing dishonorable" (Ephesians 6:13).
- After this vision, several people went to visit St. Anthony and began to discuss with him the soul and where it goes after its departure from the body. The very next night, he heard a voice call to him saying:
"Anthony, arise. Come out from your cell and look"
Indeed, St. Anthony the Great went out (for he knew what voices he should heed) and, having lifted his gaze up to Heaven, saw the following vision.
A tall and fearful creature, horrible in form, was standing straight up. His height seemed to reach up to the clouds, while a multitude of creatures flew around him, as though they had feathers. He would stretch out his hand and some of these he prevented from flying, while others succeeded in passing by and flying higher, continuing on their path without obstruction. This immensely tall demon would grit his teeth over those who escaped him; but, on the contrary, he would rejoice over those who drew near and were knocked down.
Forthwith St. Anthony heard a voice:
"Anthony, try to digest all that you have seen. And thereupon he cleansed his mind and reflected on what he had seen. It was the passage of souls into Heaven, and the immensely tall and frightening wild man, who was standing erect, was the Devil, who despises the Faithful. He takes hold of those who were guilty of sins and tries to prevent them from passing. Those who did not in their lives heed his counsel, however, he cannot hold, and for this reason such persons succeed in soaring above him and making their way to Heaven. When St. Anthony the Great saw this vision, it reminded him of the earlier one that he had seen, and he struggled daily, thereafter, to excel in the virtuous life.
This could be a reference to the spiritual srtuggle we have in this life against the forces of evil which try to prevent us from ascending to heaven as we exercise the virtues and Christian life. The ascension to heaven starts in life and is completed at death. Theosis is a continual process. Saint Peter tells us that the devil is like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour [1Peter 5:8]. But this occurs in life, not after death.
Saint Anthony was still alive in his vision. He did not die and then ascend through 20 toll houses.
Again, which volume of the Evergetinos and which page is this from? Sources and citations in Father Seraphim's book on the toll houses, are explained in the counter books I listed in the other thread. I'm willing to help you but you need to read those books and do your homework.
When it comes to obedience, you might not have the eyes and spiritual understanding yet to be able to receive this. I believe this kind of grace is given to people who have suffered much in their lives, and especially suffered for God and Orthodoxy. Suffering is good and therapeutic because it attracts the grace of God. All people are at different levels of spiritual maturity and growth. We all have strengths and weaknesses.
Inco,
I don't dispute what the holy fathers teach. But, I question, very much, your interpretations of them. And basically, you have no authority here or in my life, to act like a teacher, because your posts indicate a characteristic that is quite judgemental and condemning of others. You give a VERY POOR example of someone who leads his life by the standards of the holy fathers. And because of that, I question YOUR spiritual maturity.
Again you judge and presume that I don't know about what obedience means. You don't know my life. You have no idea about what I suffer for Orthodoxy. You have no place to give me lectures. And I don’t question your sufferings. But, I question your conduct here. It is very negative and full of spiritual pride. Do you believe that you can presume to tell me what I am doing wrong with my life? Do you feel that you know who I am? I wonder if you will answer these questions.
A perfect example of your spiritual pride is your post to Xenia:
I'm sorry that your post was viewed 240 times and nobody had the kindness to try to help. God have mercy on this generation.
Right there, in a nutshell. Judgment. What makes you think you have any authority to APOLOGIZES for others? And if you want to pray to God to have mercy on this generation, then why does it look like you are excluding yourself? Because you apologized to her, for yourself and that makes you exempt? You ARE part of this generation. But, I haven’t seen you apologize without justifying yourself. Pride. Pride. Pride.
That is my observation of you, on this website. Your posts are a reflection of your character and your character is not a reflection of the teachings of the holy fathers concerning humility. Why can’t you be more friendly and polite? All you do is judge everyone. What I see is a person that blows a lot of hot air. I’m sure that you are incapable of making a sincere apology for all your attacks on the other posters. You would need to attach a pathetic rebuttal to your own apology.
I wonder if you have the spiritual strength to offer a sincere apology. You question my spiritual understanding, but I question your spiritual integrity. And if you think this is a game, then think again. You may not care that you are anonymous amongst us, but your conduct is still viewed by God. All of us are. And that’s how I post. If you are a true worshipper of Christ, then you will re-consider the tone of your posts. You even wrote, on another post, that living the Orthodox Christian live is 24/7. Well, your posts are a truly negative reflection of how YOU conduct yourself as an Orthodox Christian.
That is my view. If you don't like it. Then don't answer.
Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. (Ps. 50)
I stand by what I said to Xenia. There is no pride, only truth. Contemporary Orthodoxy is fighting for its very survival. The truth needs to be known. There is an apostasy from the virtues today. Even heretical forms of Christianity like Roman Catholicism, Protestantism and Evangelicalism are becoming more and more apostate and worldly.
What I gather from you is that you belittle me and attack me personally. I don't do this to you. I challenge claims and address issues. There is a difference.
Truth can be abrasive. "Love" and "unity" at the expence of truth, is demonic. The fact of the matter is that the state of the churches and the world are in bad shape. Telling the truth is not reflective of pride. I didn't write the book, I only read it. Christ was not being prideful when he critisized the pharisees.
I didn't give any interpretation of the Evergetinos. I only related what it says. And unless you apply it's teaching on love, humility and obedience, you will never advance spiritually. Most "Christians" today exist on a very superficial level. Your even questioning the Evergetinos' teaching on obedience, shows you do not have the mind of the Fathers and the spiritual life. Don't take my word for it, read it yourself.
Many Orthodox today are more busy trying to be "correct," as opposed to being Christian. I strongly object to this mentality.
Anyway, I apologize to you and this website for my sins.