Thoughts on World Orthodoxy and ROCOR

[Justin Kissel]

It has come to my intention that my first post is being taken for a more liberal posting than it is. If you are a member of world Orthodoxy, what I said should either 1) make you think hard because there might be something to it, or 2) make you angry because I would dare imply what I did. If you are in world Orthodoxy and agreed with it, or even thought it made a lot of good points, you've misunderstood it.

[Anastasios]

Justin,

The more I read about the ecumenical movement, the more I am getting annoyed. Hence my statement that you are making good points. I wouldn't say that I agree that the leaders of "World Orthodoxy" are heretics but you made a good point and it's something I am wrestling with.

I previously have defended certain friends of mine who are in the ecumenical movement (i.e. who actually were delegates at the WCC) because I know them to be devout Orthodox who are confronting the errors of Protestantism (one of my Vlad's profs is such). However, I then have read some books by a certain Orthodox priest at another Orthodox Seminary which to me is just outrageous--it's called something like "Orthodoxy in Conversation" but I would subtitle it "20 Articles on how to water down Orthodoxy so much that there is no reason to become Orthodox!"

I am becoming more torn than before at this time because on the one hand I am seeing such bad fruit and becoming disheartened, but the more I study the Old Calendar movment as I work on my chart, the more offended I am becoming at all of the various Synods for their uncharitable actions. I don't want to attack anyone in particular but I am becoming very annoyed, let's just say that.

anastasios

[bogoliubtsy]

Anastasios,

Did your professor ever let you know exactly what is going on at WCC and NCC meetings these days? I know Orthodox participation was supposed to have over the past year as a result of study, reflection, which resulted in the releasing of that large document by the Orthodox that examines our role in the WCC and NCC. Is there straight up joint prayer with heterodox now? Do they really discuss the "Church" in terms of all Christian confessions?

Thanks!

[Julianna]

Justin,

The more I read about the ecumenical movement, the more I am getting annoyed. Hence my statement that you are making good points. I wouldn't say that I agree that the leaders of "World Orthodoxy" are heretics but you made a good point and it's something I am wrestling with.

I previously have defended certain friends of mine who are in the ecumenical movement (i.e. who actually were delegates at the WCC) because I know them to be devout Orthodox who are confronting the errors of Protestantism (one of my Vlad's profs is such). However, I then have read some books by a certain Orthodox priest at another Orthodox Seminary which to me is just outrageous--it's called something like "Orthodoxy in Conversation" but I would subtitle it "20 Articles on how to water down Orthodoxy so much that there is no reason to become Orthodox!"

:shock: :shock: :shock:

[Julianna]

It has come to my intention that my first post is being taken for a more liberal posting than it is. If you are a member of world Orthodoxy, what I said should either 1) make you think hard because there might be something to it, or 2) make you angry because I would dare imply what I did. If you are in world Orthodoxy and agreed with it, or even thought it made a lot of good points, you've misunderstood it.

maybe you'd clarify it? I'd replyied to you cause it seemed you're going with the Cyprian irrationalizations

[Justin Kissel]

The exception listed is merely one of the fundamental and elementary truths of Orthodox ecclesiology, which has been promoted from the second century on: a bishop, in his local Church, must be judged as a group in itself, and cannot simply be lumped in with a larger group. Those on the left fall into neo-papal-patriarchalism, trying to see validity and officiality in recognition by certain hierarchs, or certain groups of hierarchs. Some on the right have fallen into the opposite error, sort of an inverse neo-papal-patriarchalism: they see the national Churches and autocephalies as that which must be judged, and therefore have left off the true Orthodox practice which makes each individual bishop responsible for his own actions and beliefs. If I can hazard a guess as to why people are following into these errors, I'd say there are two reasons: 1) people are not familiar with genuine Orthodox ecclesiology, either in reading the Fathers and certainly through experience, and therefore judge everything according to entire local Churches, rather than judging by individual bishops; and 2) it's just plain easier to group everything together; it's easier both in terms of positive recognition and in condemnation to just pretend like everyone in a certain Church is on the same page, and claim "well they recognize us" or "well they are sergianists, they are graceless".

The error is perhaps coming from the fact that I refuse to shoot from the hip and condemn certain groups on this thread? Perhaps people would like me, Joe Nobody, the layman and new convert, to start making lists of the condemned even when my bishops haven't?

Anastasios,

I must admit that I'm at a loss as to how to respond. I never saw that coming. Well, I mean, I knew it could come, but I didn't expect that post...

[Justin Kissel]

I sort of regret posting the first post, to tell you the truth. Such posts are not mine to make.

I even regret making the post above this one, to be honest.