Sean wrote:If the Church is not your Mother, God is not your Father. You are not a member of the Church, therefore you have no authority to comment on "our" scriptures, much less teach the members of the Body of Christ about them. There isn't a single thing you could point out to us that we would find new or profound. There isn't a thing you could teach us that we haven't already thoroughly considered and utterly rejected, as many of us are converts from your sectarianism.
Sean,
Have you ever been told that we are not suppose to discuss the Bible with heretics but only to confute their errors from the Holy Fathers? I have (by someone in the Lavrites though I am not sure whether he is still with them).
Certainly I think that what the Scriptures teach about Sacraments and Ascetic struggle goes aganist protestantism.
The Orthodox understanding of Salvation even though it is so simple I still find very hard to explain to protestants and papists though it is clearly there in the Bible.
May God enlighten the eyes of all our hearts as we head into lent.
Theophan.
I see that you have rightly acknowledged that Christ God explicitly told the Apostles that the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, would guide them in the way of all truth in establishing the Church on Pentecost.
Fixed it 
What you did not acknowledge was Christ's additional, explicit teaching that this Church would endure until the end of the world--that "the gates of hell" would not prevail against this Church which would be established at Pentecost.
I absolutely agree with that but our opinion differs on what church he was talking about. I believe he was talking about the body of christ, which is every believer to live, have lived or ever will live not the Orthodox church in particular.
Put differently, the true Church established at Pentecost (i.e., the Orthodox Church) must, according to the scriptures, still exist in an unadulterated form. If it does not now exist, Christ's explicit teaching on this subject would be in error, which is not possible.
The true church does still exist but it is not about a governing body. It is about the body of christ, believers of the Gospel, coming together and worshiping him. There are believers in Him in my church, your church, the catholic church, the lutheran church, in asian countries meeting in secret and in the jungles of south america, etc. Of course God only knows who is truly saved but there is most likely at least one person in each of those places that believes the Gospel. It's about what's in the heart not what church you attend. We do need to be a part of a spirit filled church that glorifies God, sticks to His Word, provides us an environment and teaching that we can grow in, etc. That, however, is up to us to follow God's leading on.
Tim,
If you take that position that the bible is only relevant to their specific situation and that the principles behind what was said do not apply, how does the bible have any meaning to us then?
My point was that YOU were taking that quote out of context to make a point of your own that is not applicable.
What paul was combating was putting your faith in anything other than Jesus which seems to be a problem at times within the orthodox church and many other churches as well.
And that is the jist of it. You look at Orthodoxy by the standards of Orthodox people. The Orthodox faith is pure, but the people are messed up. You really should read the lives of the saints.
You know what I see? I see the Orthodox teachings as a preservation of the teachings of the Apostles, BUT, the people you meet in Orthodox Churches do not reflect that. I had an advantage. I read the holy fathers, years before I actually got to meet the “Church folks”. So, I came to understand that the people are not always the reflection of the faith. They just live by what they know. The problem with many converts is that they can’t separate the teachings from the sins of man. You see an Orthodox person and expect him or her to act according to the faith that you studied about. When they don’t act like saints, then you assume that the faith is flawed. That’s the problem. You can’t separate the two. The faith is pure, but the people are flawed.
There is nothing that you can argue, from your protestant viewpoint, that cannot be explained in Orthodox terms. But, if an Orthodox person can’t explain it, then you assume that the Orthodox view is wrong. That’s not how it works. It just means that the person you are talking to, can’t explain it.
The scriptures do show us however that if we truly are saved, works will come because we have the Holy Spirit living within us.
The only way that the Holy Spirit works WITHIN us is when we are baptised, in truth...in the Orthodox faith. There is no truth outside of the Orthodox Church. For now, the Holy Spirit is working outside of you.
Jesus Christ established His Church, on Earth, on Pentecost. The Apostles governed the Church. They laid hands on others to be bishops(overseers) of Christ’s Church after they were gone. One century led to another. The Apostolic succession continued. Only until the Great Schism of 1054 A.D., was there a severe seperation. After that, the Lutherians broke away and after that other splits. But, the Eastern Orthodox stayed together;even during the Dark Ages which was only in the West. The East was flourishing in faith and the saints were abundant. But, the West fell into total spiritual ignorance. Even Charlamagne couldn’t read.
It wasn’t until the fall of Constantinople, that the Patriarch really fell away from the faith. And today he is ready to worship with the pope. This is not the true faith of Orthodoxy. The true faith is in the teachings that are presevered from the time of Pentecost.
Please learn to separate the differences and you will see clearly.
Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. (Ps. 50)
And that is the jist of it. You look at Orthodoxy by the standards of Orthodox people. The Orthodox faith is pure, but the people are messed up. You really should read the lives of the saints.
I was not referring to the people within the Church, I was saying that when you go to an orthodox church their teaching does not let people know that salvation does not depend on putting your faith in infant baptism, and being part of the orthodox church which is what i seem to be finding out. I look at Orthodoxy based on what the official stance is of the Church on essential doctrines. I've said several times that it doesn't matter what church you go to, what does matter is what you believe in your heart about Jesus. If you believe the biblical gospel then you are saved no matter what church you attend. It is the Orthodox Church's responsibility to make sure that those who attend their church are spiritually nurtured so that they have the support to become healthy believers reproducing other healthy believers. In fact the bible says those who teach will incur stricter judgment. Correct teaching on the Word of God is necessary for that nourishment but unfortunately it's not there it seems. In the end though each individual person is responsible to seek and know the truth.
They just live by what they know. The problem with many converts is that they can’t separate the teachings from the sins of man. You see an Orthodox person and expect him or her to act according to the faith that you studied about. When they don’t act like saints, then you assume that the faith is flawed. That’s the problem. You can’t separate the two. The faith is pure, but the people are flawed.
See that's what really breaks my heart. They live by what they know but what they know is flawed because the Orthodox church's teachings are flawed biblically.
The only way that the Holy Spirit works WITHIN us is when we are baptised, in truth...in the Orthodox faith. There is no truth outside of the Orthodox Church. For now, the Holy Spirit is working outside of you.
The bible does not say that.
I've asked this before but i don't think anyone answered yet, how do i get saved in the orthodox church?
Tim wrote:
I've asked this before but i don't think anyone answered yet, how do i get saved in the orthodox church?
Because it's a protestant question. The Orthodox don't ask that question. We know that it's a life-long process. And even the Orthodox saints never stated that they were saved.
But, there is a key point...repentence. It is the essencial spiritual condition of the soul; to move from self-centeredness to God-centeredness. On the death bed, an Orthodox person, even a saint, still does not know if his/her repentence in life, was enough. That is where Christ's judgement comes in and makes the final evaluation. Because to have such confidence, would mean pride and God doesn't accept pride.
But, protestants believe that they believe in Jesus Christ and they are saved. It's a done deal, right? So, no need for repentence. That is the biggest mis-interpretation of Christ's teachings.
In the Holy Bible, St. John the Forerunner and Jesus Christ, both said: Repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand. (Matt. 3:2 and Matt. 4:17). They were referring to Christ,but also indicating a way of life, in relation to God.
Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. (Ps. 50)