Baptism, again

[GOCPriestMark]

I read that Chrismation will rectify an un-Canonical baptism. It will breath life into a dead form. I don't remember where I read this.

But, a second baptism is not required if it was done with triple immersion in the name of the HOLY TRINITY, the first time.

The reception of papist members into the Orthodox Church should be baptised(immersed), in these days, because they have adopted the sprinkling and not kept the tradition of the triple immersion. But, in the earlier centuries, they were still using the method of triple immersion.

While it is true that Holy Chrism may be used, this is what is said in CANON XLVI (46) of the 85 Apostolic Canons:
We order any Bishop or Priest, that has accepted any heretic’s baptism or sacrifice be deposed; for “what consonance has Christ with Belial? Or what part has the believer with an unbeliever?”
Interpretation
It is necessary for us Orthodox Christians to shun heretics and the ceremonies of heretics. The heretics ought rather to be criticized and admonished by Bishops and Priests in the hope of their apprehending and returning from their deception. And even more, the present Canon prescribes that if any Bishop or Priest shall accept a heretic’s baptism as right and true, or any of their ceremonies, it is ordered that he be deposed. For what consonance has Christ with the Devil? Or what portion hath the believer with an unbeliever? Those who accept the doings of heretics either themselves entertain similar views to theirs or at any rate they lack an eagerness to free them from their misbelief. For how can those who acquiesce in their ceremonies criticize them with the view of persuading them to give up their misbelief and deceptive heresy?

[joasia]

Fr. Mark,

Then a person may end up being baptised a multiple of times in the name of true baptism if they move from one jurisdiction to another. Clergy can use this Canon for the wrong reasons due to their ignorance. This seems like an extreme on the other end.

The Nicene Creed says: I believe in one baptism for the remission of sins.

Of course heretic baptisms should be shunned, that is why Holy Chrismation is required to rectify it. But, even the Acropolis was converted into a church. It was a pagan temple and then was purified to be a Church of God. Anything that God touches will be cleansed.

Is it possible that the Canon is meant to mean that we should not believe that the Holy Spirit works in baptisms outsided the true Church? What I am saying is that baptism is not accepted outside of the true Church, but when I person converts, they should not have to go through triple immersion again...hence Chrismation, by the Holy Spirit.

These are just my thoughts. I will research this further.

[GOCPriestMark]

Here is the next canon then, read it all before you come to any conclusion, (and at the end I will tell you the conclusion you should come to ) :

CANON XLVII (47)
If a Bishop or Priest baptize anew anyone that has had a true baptism, or fail to baptize anyone that has been polluted by the impious, let him be deposed, on the ground that he is mocking the Cross and Death of the Lord and for failing to distinguish priests from pseudo-priests.

Interpretation
One Baptism has been handed down to us Orthodox Christians (Ephesians 4:4) by our Lord as well as by the divine Apostles and the holy Fathers; because the Cross and the Death of the Lord, in the type or similitude of which baptism is celebrated, were but one.

For this reason the present Apostolic Canon prescribes that any Bishop or Priest will be deposed should he baptize a second time anew and beginning all over again someone who has been truly baptize as though he were dealing with one utterly unbaptized. This is in accordance with the order given by the Lord and which was spoken of by the Apostles and divine Fathers. He shall be deposed if he rebaptizes someone who has been baptized in the very same manner as Orthodox Christians, because with this second baptism he is re-crucifying and publicly ridiculing the Son of God, which St. Paul says is impossible, and he is offering a second death to the Lord, over whom death no longer has dominion (Hebrews 6:4; Romans 6:5), according to the same St. Paul.

Likewise in the event that any Bishop or Priest should refuse to baptize with the regular Orthodox baptism of the Catholic Church one who has been polluted, that is a person who has been baptized by the impious, or in plain language, baptized by heretics. Such a Bishop is to be deposed, since he is mocking the Cross and death of the Lord.

For he wrongly and dangerously thinks that the unclean and repugnant baptism of heretics is a type of the cross and death of the Lord, which it is not; and for this reason he accepts it and holds it to be equal to the baptism of the Orthodox Christians. And in addition because it fails to distinguish the true priest of the Orthodox from the false priests of the heretics, but, instead, accepts them both as equally true. For neither can the abominable baptism of heretics make true Christians out of those who are baptized with it, nor can their ordination make true priests out of those ordained, according to Apostolic Canon LXVIII.

However, note that holy Baptism is performed in the type of the cross and death of the Lord. For St. Paul says that “as many as have been baptized in Jesus Christ have been baptized in His death” (Romans 6:3). And “Therefore we have been buried with Him by baptism into death. (Romans 6:4). And “we have been planted together in the likeness of His death” Romans 6: 5).

Why, even the Cross was called a baptism by the Lord, according to Chrysostom, when He said: “Are you able to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? . . . Indeed . . . you shall be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with” (Matthew 20: 22-23; Romans 6:9).

Again: “I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how I am distressed until it be accomplished” (Luke 12:50).

The conclusion you should have is to thank God that you are not accountable for any decisions about who gets baptized and who doesn't.

[joasia]

Fr. Mark,

I do thank you for clarifying this. Of course, I have no intention of defying the Orthodox teachings. Sometimes, there are aspects of theology that I have not fully studied.

As I mentioned, these were my thoughts(and not something that I was committed to).

I am though, concerned about a friend of mine that was baptised twice(within Orthodoxy but different jurisdictions).

And was given another name. Which baptism is correct?

In Christ, Joanna

[Maria]

Fr. Mark,

I do thank you for clarifying this. Of course, I have no intention of defying the Orthodox teachings. Sometimes, there are aspects of theology that I have not fully studied.

As I mentioned, these were my thoughts(and not something that I was committed to).

I am though, concerned about a friend of mine that was baptised twice(within Orthodoxy but different jurisdictions).

And was given another name. Which baptism is correct?

In Christ, Joanna

Were both of these Orthodox jurisdictions part of the TOC?

I have seen adults being baptized by priests belonging to Worldwide Orthodox churches. In most cases, a kiddie pool was used and water was poured over the entire body using a watering can. Note that the person was not immersed three times, but instead, water was poured over their body three times. However, in the OCA, I have witnessed water being poured over the candidate's head as they leaned over the baby Baptismal font because the church did not have an adult sized Baptismal font.

I have been told by a Bishop in the TOC, that in the two cases above, the person would be baptized upon reception in the TOC, as the body was not totally immersed, and there was no good reason why they were not. A body of water such as the ocean, a river, or a lake can always be used. Or a large container such as a 100 gallon horse trough can be purchased inexpensively.

Nevertheless, in cases of medical emergency, where a person is not expected to live and is baptized in the hospital by sprinkling, and then receives Holy Chrismation and Holy Communion, then that baptism and Sacraments of Initiation are considered valid if performed by a TOC priest or bishop. Yet, that person is free to receive Baptism by immersion later on should they recover.

[joasia]

Fr. Mark,

I do thank you for clarifying this. Of course, I have no intention of defying the Orthodox teachings. Sometimes, there are aspects of theology that I have not fully studied.

As I mentioned, these were my thoughts(and not something that I was committed to).

I am though, concerned about a friend of mine that was baptised twice(within Orthodoxy but different jurisdictions).

And was given another name. Which baptism is correct?

In Christ, Joanna

Were both of these Orthodox jurisdictions part of the TOC?

I have seen adults being baptized by priests belonging to Worldwide Orthodox churches. In most cases, a kiddie pool was used and water was poured over the entire body using a watering can. Note that the person was not immersed three times, but instead, water was poured over their body three times. However, in the OCA, I have witnessed water being poured over the candidate's head as they leaned over the baby Baptismal font because the church did not have an adult sized Baptismal font.

I have been told by a Bishop in the TOC, that in the two cases above, the person would be baptized upon reception in the TOC, as the body was not totally immersed, and there was no good reason why they were not. A body of water such as the ocean, a river, or a lake can always be used. Or a large container such as a 100 gallon horse trough can be purchased inexpensively.

Nevertheless, in cases of medical emergency, where a person is not expected to live and is baptized in the hospital by sprinkling, and then receives Holy Chrismation and Holy Communion, then that baptism and Sacraments of Initiation are considered valid if performed by a TOC priest or bishop. Yet, that person is free to receive Baptism by immersion later on should they recover.

They were both in the new calendar Greek jurisdiction. I have seen a "baptism" (new calendar Greek) done over the baby font too. Not a baptism, by the true meaning. It is absolutely necessary, for a healthy person, to be fully immersed three times, to be considered the baptism that Jesus Christ established for us.