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Pravoslavnik
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Post by Pravoslavnik »

"We should take the saint's opinions under consideration, along with Napolean Hill, Earl Nightingale, Jim Rohn, Brian Tracy, Zog Ziglar, etc. "

Tom,

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 Are we not admonished by the Holy Scriptures themselves to forego the mere "private interpretation" of scriptures, in contrast to their proper interpretation by the saints of God?  (Read the [i]Second Epistle of St. Peter [/i]on this account, my friend.)  Are these modern Protestant salesmen that you mention above to be believed rather than St. John Chrysostom, one of the great Holy Hierarchs of the Orthodox Church?  Surely an Orthodox Christian must be guided by the interpretations St. John and the other saints, who had participated directly in Divine revelations.  For example, St. John Chrysostomos was seen conversing with the Apostle Paul while composing his sermons.
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TomS
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Post by TomS »

Pravoslavnik wrote:

For example, St. John Chrysostomos was seen conversing with the Apostle Paul while composing his sermons.

Well, that explains quite a bit.

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stumbler
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Post by stumbler »

Hi Pravo - I have to agree with what you say. The culture of wealth at any cost and sales, sales, sales is indeed corrosive and anti-Christian.

The mention of Zig Zigler reminded me of my (short, though lucrative) days in sales and sales training.

Once, when I was taking some time out from college, I was working at a Toyota dealership in the Northwest. An Episcopal priest came in wanting to buy an MR2 (a tiny sportscar for those who might not know what it is.) I had a very difficult time trying to respectfully suggest that he might want to consider something more practical for his work, and, of course, I knew it was the wrong thing to do from my employer's point of view as well.

Finally, I managed to talk him out of the MR2 and myself out of $500.

Many years later, when I was working at a Honda dealership in Northern California, trying to earn some quick money to finance an artistic project I was producing, I ran into another Episcopal priest. He wanted a Toyota Celica.

I had learned my lesson well. I encouraged him and his car-lust, and I buried him in that Celica and put almost $1k in my pocket.

Money lust had eradicated my conscience and my respect for even the clergy, albeit clergy of another faith. (I don't think I would have done the same thing to an Orthodox priest, though I don't think an Orthodox priest would have put himself in such a position. I would do it in an instant to an MP cleric, but they are neither clergy nor Orthodox.)

I don't think that the gospel of Zig Ziglar is really one we ought to follow, and I say this as someone who is trained in that philosophy and who has trained others in that philosophy.

For some, wealth is a temptation while for others, wealth might be a burden. I don't think it is ever right for us to second-guess our burdens or our temptations. We ought to trust in God that what we are offered, good or bad, is for a purpose.

The problem I have with books like "The Secret" is the problems which have been stated. Those books encourage us to be our own God and to feel responsible for things beyond our control.

As a sales manager and sales trainer, I used those philosophies to make my exploited workers feel responsible for circumstances beyond their control. Those are not books designed to help people, as they are portrayed. They are designed (and function quite well) as books which enslave people with material lust.

I speak fluent Zig Ziglar. The purpose and use of Zig Ziglar is the antithesis of the Holy Gospels.

Wealth isn't wrong, if it is gained honestly and does not corrupt. It is NOT a demonstration of God smiling upon one earthly human, just as poverty is not a sign of God's disfavour.

We need to trust that God gives us what we need.

Zig Ziglar tells us to go out and get what we want.

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TomS
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Post by TomS »

Stumbler,

"You can have anything you want, if you just help enough people get what they want" Classic Zig.

Ziglar, Hopkins, Tracy. "Closing the Sale"

Yet I never got pulled into the greed like you did. Why is that?

What do you think about Jeffrey Gitomer?

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stumbler
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Post by stumbler »

Tom- What you seem to think of as "getting pulled into the greed" I see as being consistent with the philosophy.

If you follow Zig, you never leave money on the table.

No other considerations enter into it.

The point of my story, if there was one, was that if you have other considerations, you can not execute the Zig philosophy.

I hope that has clarified things a bit.

I do believe that it is impossible to follow both Zig Zigler and the Holy Gospels.

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TomS
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Post by TomS »

stumbler wrote:

If you follow Zig, you never leave money on the table.

First off, it does not say "you never leave money in the client's POCKETS!"

If specifically says "On the table". It simply means that the client was willing to pay a higher price for the product than what the two of you agreed on.

How is that greed if the client is willing to pay a higher price?
And what about your efforts? Your investment? Is your time not worth anything? What about the years of personal investment you have put into the product knowledge required to match the customer with the product that meets their needs?

You paint with too broad strokes.

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Pravoslavnik
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Leaving Money on the Table

Post by Pravoslavnik »

As I was thinking about the comments from Ziglar about never "leaving money on the table," I suddenly thought of a story from the Desert Fathers. Someone once gave a bag of gold to a monk at Scetis, and the monk asked his Abba what to do with it. Some of the Fathers conferred on the subject and decided to get rid of the gold by burying it out in the desert and leaving it there forever...Strange, but true, and rather enlightening.

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