The Lord's Prayer/The Our Father

[尼古拉前执事]

Until this weekend, I had never heard any Orthodox say the Lord's Prayer the same way as the Latins do.

As I understand it, in Slavonic and possibly the Greek, "the heavens" means something other than "heaven" and that there is a theological change ion saying "deliver us from evil" as opposed to "deliver us from the evil one"

I wil admit debts and debtors as opposed to tresspassers and tresspasses is more of a stylistic difference, but I heard someone once say there is a difference in saying one over the other.

Thoughts?

[Justin Kissel]

Ok, typed for a while and then the power went out and I lost my post. Let me sum up: The difference is what you make of it. We fill words with theological content. Some men use words that are not commonly used in Orthodoxy, as for example when St. John of Kronstadt used Roman Catholic terms such as "merits". On the opposite side, some men guard against innovation by being very cautious in using new words. Neither approach is necessarily wrong in itself, but different times call for different approaches. IMO, the time we are in calls for the approach used by St. John of Kronstadt; we in the west shouldn't be so picky about using words like "sacrament" or having different words in the Our Father.

[尼古拉前执事]

Maybe I am just hyper-critical (not meaning hypocritical! LOL!) then, as I also have a problem with the you/who translation rather than the thee and thou translations. I think words are very important and should be chosen very carefully.

[Justin Kissel]

Indeed, I totally agree. And oddly enough, the very first line on the examination of Fr. Seraphim that I'll be posting on the forum shortly is a similar remark by Fr. Seraphim: "Our every word must be carefully considered, for in every word the truth is at stake."

If and when Mary and I get settled and can get our books out of storage, I'll dig out the book I have by Lazar Puhalo on the Divine Liturgy as I think he goes into things like this. Will be interesting to see what he says (though knowing me, I'll probably disagree )

[尼古拉前执事]

King James

And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. Give us day by day our daily bread. And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

Douay-Rheims

And he said to them: When you pray, say: Father, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our sins, for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation.

Latin Vulgate

et ait illis cum oratis dicite Pater sanctificetur nomen tuum adveniat regnum tuum panem nostrum cotidianum da nobis cotidie et dimitte nobis peccata nostra siquidem et ipsi dimittimus omni debenti nobis et ne nos inducas in temptationem

Greek NT NA26/27 w/Accents

εἶπεν δὲ αὐτοῖς, ὅταν προσεύχησθε, λέγετε, πάτερ, ἁγιασθήτω τὸ ὄνομά σου: ἐλθέτω ἡ βασιλεία σου: τὸν ἄρτον ἡμῶν τὸν ἐπιούσιον δίδου ἡμῖν τὸ καθ' ἡμέραν: καὶ ἄφες ἡμῖν τὰς ἁμαρτίας ἡμῶν, καὶ γὰρ αὐτοὶ ἀφίομεν παντὶ ὀφείλοντι ἡμῖν: καὶ μὴ εἰενέγκῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς πειρασμόν.

Greek NT NA26/27 w/o Accents

ειπεν δε αυτοις οταν προσευχησθε λεγετε πατερ αγιασθητω το ονομα σου ελθετω η βασιλεια σου τον αρτον ημων τον επιουσιον διδου ημιν το καθ ημεραν και αφες ημιν τας αμαρτιας ημων και γαρ αυτοι αφιομεν παντι οφειλοντι ημιν και μη εισενεγκης ημας εις πειρασμον

[尼古拉前执事]

Nektarios just PM'd me the Orthodox New Testament text of the same verses:

Whenever ye pray be saying Our Father Who art in the heavens: hallowed be Thy name; let thy kingdom come; let Thy will be done alone on the earth, as in heaven; be giving us our needed daily bread; and forgive us our sins; for we ourselves also forgive everyone indebted to us; and let us not be brought into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one

[Justin Kissel]

"Be ye therefore praying thus: Our Father Who art in the heavens, hallowed be Thy name; let they kingdom come, let Thy will be done also on earth, as in heaven; Give us today our daily bread; and forgive us our debts, as we also forgive our debtors; and let us not be brought into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. For Thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory to the ages. Amen." - Matt. 6:9-13 (ONT)