Converts and Orthodox Saints And Fathers

[Miriam]

Natasha:

I am cradle born Orthodox. I have been ROCOR most of my life. I am of mixed heritage, raised Russian with generous portion of everything else.

Yes, I think the Church needs to change, but I think you misunderstand from what aspect. I do not mean the fundamental teachings of the church. I do mean that it needs to change from the "we're going back to Russia" attitude to a more we're going to take care of our people here.

I may be Russian, but I certainly am not interested in going back to the old country. What for? My life is here, my home is here. And what about all the converts? Is it necessary for them to "go back"? Or are they to be forgotten in the "going back"? Our churches still continue to operate on that going back attitutude and as a result it forgets to take good care of their spiritual children here. It bothers me a great deal when existing spiritual children are pushed aside to make way for those "more" Russian. What? because they are born over there and I was not?

In a world full of questions, I find that not enough attention is being paid to teaching adults. The idea that a discussion group of and for adults might be beneficial is often treated with comtempt and derision. How many parishes avail to their adult parishioners a class? In anything?

Before attempting to make changes in the world...it might be better to take care of what you've got. And certainly before you lose what little "flock" you have.

[Justin Kissel]

I may be Russian, but I certainly am not interested in going back to the old country. What for? My life is here, my home is here. And what about all the converts? Is it necessary for them to "go back"? Or are they to be forgotten in the "going back"? Our churches still continue to operate on that going back attitutude and as a result it forgets to take good care of their spiritual children here.

Before I came into ROCOR, I was in the Antiochian jurisdiction. I too saw the Russianness of ROCOR, and had some worries. Will I be too American? Will I cause a scandal since I have no plans of "Russianizing" (as a matter of fact I'd like to be in an American Church)? Would my wife and I "fit in" (though we are both of slavic ethnicity, and though my wife enjoys things like Slavonik, we are not Russian and don't plan on becoming so)? Because I'm approaching this Russianness from outside, and you're approaching it from within, we seem to have come to a different place (though not too far apart). Eventually I came to see myself as more of a sojourner that would enter into the Russian Church abroad simply because it was the one where I thought I could worship the Lord in grace and truth. I guess I thought of myself as something of a sinful version of Saint Maximos, he being willing to sojourn in Rome to be among the orthodox, I willing to sojourn among the Russians.

I guess I don't want to make too much of a fuss about the Russianness of the Church, then, because... well.. that's who they are. I knew that coming in, so how can I now start making a big deal about it? I can understand the questions coming from your perspective, though. What happens when it is mostly converts or American-born? When the ROCOR ceases to be Russian in all but religious custom and language (not in actual membership and so forth), will they be willing to change? Should they change? And what about the people they already have here? Are they neglected? Are their ideas dismissed out of hand as childish or "too American" or "convert baggage" or "Protestant ideas"? I just don't know, I don't have enough real life experience yet.

I do think, though, as I said before, that things will change naturally as more deacons, priests, and bishops were born and raised in America. What will happen then? Will there be a schism between the "Westerners" and "True Russians"? Will we no longer wish to return to the "Russian Church," but instead wish to simply form or become part of the Churches in whatever countries each ROCOR parish is? Or will the end come before all of this can happen? I don't know, and even if I had an opinion I wouldn't give it (because I don't want to step on any toes, being a guest in ROCOR, and one greeted so graciously). I do pray about these things, though.

[Natasha]

I will be honest and tell you that I am surprised that you are cradle Orthodox. I am surprised because (maybe unintentionally) your comments have been quite bold and seemed to come from a Protestant perspective. Well, as they say, never assume because….well you know.
What is the “we are going back to Russia attitude”? I don’t believe I have ever experienced that. The only time I have heard people mention “going back” is for a pilgrimage. I never heard of a Russian mass exodus being planned. Maybe you had a bad parish experience. Perhaps your suggestions were treated with contempt due to the spirited manner in which you approached the Priest. I know of adult education classes, & I know people who currently attend them. It seems to me as if the Church is very welcoming towards converts. Actually, many people who post on this board are converts, and I think if they were “pushed away” they would not be spending their time here.

[Miriam]

Natasha:

I'm curious as to how old you are? And are you an American born Russian or a foreign born Russian?

I ask because you indicated in another thread that you have only had experience with ROCOR. It's kind of hard to have been in ROCOR a long time and NOT known about the “we are going back to Russia attitude”. It's always been there.

Also the churches that have classes are by far the exception rather than the rule.

I didn't have a bad parish experience. I've been associated with many. Because of my associations within the community, my "suggestions" are rarely treated with comtempt, at least not to my face, and my spirited manner , well all I can say is that if not for some spirited men and women, things would just plod along without problems being properly addressed. Those people who benefited by the "fiestiness" were grateful and those who protested would prefer that "things" not change even if they are wrong in the first place.

As for converts....I personally have no problem with them. As a result of friendships with converts I have been able to learn much about my own faith. As for the Russian parishes...it depends on who you talk to and where. Some place welcome converts with open arms and others would rather they did not come. A sad, but true condition of parish life. Although many are starting to realize that converts will keep their parishes going in light of all the "Russians" who have passed on to the next world.

I suspect that the converts here have been able to find welcoming parishes and for that I am very grateful.