A summery of recent debates

[Nektarios14]

We are discsussing too many similar topics in too many threads and I am getting confused (let the Russians here crack all the Polish jokes at me they want )

Status of World Orthodoxy:

Agreed: That things aren't good. The ecumenical movement is wrong and so is modernism. The Antiochian grassroots communion with monophysites is very troubling.

Disagreed: That World Orthodoxy still has grace. Big chunks of the sinking ship are still salvagable and I think monastics especially may do much to save large pieces of the GOA and other jurisdictions. IMO jurisdictions where monasticism is dead will eventually loose grace as they formally venture into heresy. IMO there will eventually be a BIG schism in world Orthodoxy where the Athonites will lead many people to the Truth when Antioch formally enters into communion with monophysites and/or Constantinople with Rome.

Sergianism:

Agreed: It is was wrong and that that ROCOR should have broken administrative unity with the MP.

Disagreed: That sergianism is actions...active persecution and not a heresy in the normal sense of the word. Thus I think it borders on donatism to deny grace over the issue. But until the issue is resolved I believe it is proper to remain out of communion with the MP but not to declare her graceless.

Churches in resistance:

Agreed: They have the canonical right to not commerate certain bishops in order to resist and bring them back.

Disagreed: These churches have no right to declare thier mother churches graceless until an actuall union with Rome happens.

Heresy:

Agreed: That a lot of heretical opinions are floating around, even among bishops.

Disagreed: This is almost a protestant style "I'm my own infallible pope!" to personally anathematize people. I worry about this a great deal. While neo-papal ecclesiology (must be in communion with somebody) is wrong, it is wrong to go too far the other direction.

Modern moderate Saints:

Agreed: That the various modern saints are important to take into consideration at this point in time.

Disagreed: That because most of the modern saints and fathers have been moderates themselves for now this is the optimal position to hold.

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Is this a fair summery of what we have been discussing and the difference in my [moderate] position compared to the extreme ecclesiology positions?

Nektarios

[Justin Kissel]

Sounds about right. The only thing I'd add right now is something that I've wanted to mention for a couple days but have forgotten to (though your mention of it brought it to mind just now). With all due respect (and I mean that, I'm not just saying it to soften what I'm going to say), I think the sinking ship analogy is an imprecise one (or inaccurate one) to use. This seems to imply that things are not able to be repaired, which I don't think is either biblical of patristic. There are lots of examples, both in the Bible (especially the OT prophets) and in Church history (Arianism, Unity of Florence, etc.) where things looked very dim, and it seemed like "the whole world" was against the Church, and like specific local Churches were totally corrupted and damaged beyond repair. But this is not so, God's Israel defeated all of her obstacles, all of the gates of hades which attacked her. I believe a better analogy, then, is either a run away train, or people heading towards a cliff. I prefer to use the cliff example since, in that case, we could say that the people have taken down the fences (e.g., the canons), and are ignoring the fact that they are about to fall headlong into death. But, before it happens, there is a chance to turn back. The council of Florence didn't become death until it was signed. That isn't to say that the lapses and discussions in Ferrara and Florence were ok; yet Saint Mark, in all of his zeal and righteous fire, did not go to the extreme measures that he did until things were absolutely signed and done. I honestly don't think there has been such a huge mistake yet. Yes, there have been betrayals of Orthodoxy, but these can--even now--be repaired. Even now world Orthodoxy can awake to find itself running towards a cliff. It's not until they go over that I think we can say with assurance that their end has come. And then, at that moment, I will look to my bishops to say so, not to the internet.

[Justin Kissel]

Pardon the off-topic remarks, please.

[尼古拉前执事]

Good summary! However, unlike Paradosis, I like the sinking ship analogy, as I can just picture some monks bailing the water as heretics and the OCL is trying to make the hole(s) bigger and some of the priests and bishops telling the passengers that there is no hole.

The question becomes one of can the water be bailed quicker than the hole is widened and when do you jump off? Some people jump off before they get wet while others want to wait until it hits bottom to decide to abandon ship and still others would stay on the ride the whole time convinced there was no hole.

[Nektarios14]

Nik,

All I can say is give me a big bucket and maybe even a snorkel, then! Those of us traditionalists/moderates still within world Orthodoxy will fight until the bitter end to save the ship we dearly love.

Justin,

I agree that the boat analogy is lacking unless some modifications are made. There is ONE boat that has EVERYONE on it...ROAC, ROCOR, OCA, GOA, TOC, GOC etc. The boat "S.S. Orthodoxy" cannot sink - on this the fathers all agree. Compartments can be puntured here and there and be jetisoned, but then the crew (i.e. the saints) always make fortification to repair S.S. Orthodoxy so she never sinks. The world Orthodoxy crowd's compartments have been punctured but they aren't completly full by a long shot. With some very good crew members the leaks can for the most part be repaired. The ROCOR is for the most part sealed off with a few open passages to Serbia and Jerusalem. The extreme churches are completely sealed off, but they are still on the unsinkable S.S. Orthodoxy. What do you think of this revision of the analogy?

[尼古拉前执事]

Works for me, but some groups if they are onboard are hanging by a spliter. I guess the argument becomes who's still aboard and who has been jettisoned but is told they are still on the boat.

[Logos]

Nik, I love the statement that you put in the bubble there on the ship. It is such a true statement about today.