Most Holy Mother of God, save us!

[Daniel]

If she can not help us then who amongst the rest of the saints can?

None.

Then that brings this question:

Are the saints alive or dead?

[TomS]

If she can not help us then who amongst the rest of the saints can?

None.

Then that brings this question:
Are the saints alive or dead?

I don't know. No one does. Now, you may BELIEVE that they are - but no one alive actually KNOWS it as fact.

I actually do believe that they are. But I also believe that God is God - and is not swayed by anyone or anything. For he truly knows what is in our hearts - and does not need anyone to help him make up his mind.

[CorpusChristi]

the HOLY PROPHET ELIAS IS SAID TO STILL BE ALIVE

[Daniel]

I don't know. No one does. Now, you may BELIEVE that they are - but no one alive actually KNOWS it as fact.

I actually do believe that they are. But I also believe that God is God - and is not swayed by anyone or anything. For he truly knows what is in our hearts - and does not need anyone to help him make up his mind.

Tom,
I just accept it as fact that the saints are alive. Just as the sun riseth so the saints are alive and not dead. I would in fact say that one has to force himself to believe other wise. In my stubborness I'll go so far as to say that the onus of disproving this on the unbeleiving.

Seriously, look at half of the stories from the lives of the saints. Near constant visitation by other saints. Saint Alexander of Sver was visited by the Holy Trinity no less.

In reply to your second comment I'll ask this: Did Lot not inteceed for the Sodom/Gohmora and was God not willing to have mercy on the undeserving cities?

Daniel Ph.

[George Australia]

ROCOR doesnt do this either-Thank God

Ummm.....
The first hymn chanted in every Divine Liturgy is:
"Through the prayers of the Theotokos, Saviour save us!"
The only thing your little exclamation does for me is to confirm my long held suspicion that many who call themselves "Traditionalists" wouldn't recognise a Tradition if it bit them on their posterior.

[The Apostate]

Thanks everyone, for your replies.

A few comments. The ejaculation Most holy Mother of God, save us! is not in any wise an acceptance of the Roman doctrine of the Theotokos as co-Redemptrix. Orthodoxy does not accept this and one would be misguided to interpret Orthodox liturgy in this way.

I accept this with no problem as a prayer asking the Mother of God to aid our salvation by he prayers. I really don't see the problem, and I have little time for the baptodox mentality that takes issue with this.

As for the comment that ROCOR doesn't use this, this is mistaken.

Also, we only use "Through the prayers..." as the first antiphon on Feasts. At other times, we sing psalm 102 in its entirety.

[Justin Kissel]

The word save can, of course, be used in different ways. Such double (and sometimes even more) meanings attributed to the same word are pretty common. In an Orthodox liturgy, for example, the priest says "Holy things are for the holy." That is to say, the eucharist is for those pious Christians prepared for them; in essence, Christians are holy. Then, the very next thing that is said is "One is holy, one is Lord..." In other words, only one is truly holy, and that is God. Just like Jesus said in the Gospel that only one is truly good, in the fullest sense: that being God. Likewise, while of course no one could even think about helping someone take a step towards salvation without God's help, nonetheless according to Scripture God does use people as his instruments to bring about the salvation of others. So, the idea of someone "saving us" is perfectly acceptable, if properly understood.

"Meditate on these things; give yourself entirely to them, that your progress may be evident to all. Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you." - 1 Tim. 4:15-16

"Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins." - James 5:19-20

"Then He said to them, 'Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men.'" - Matt. 4:19 (cf Luke 5:10)

"Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you." - Heb. 13:17

"If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death." - 1 John 5:16

"And on some have compassion, making a distinction; but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh." - Jude 22-23

"The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life, And he who wins souls is wise." - Prov. 11:30

"Those who are wise shall shine, Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness, Like the stars forever and ever." - Dan. 12:3

I offer these not as proof texts, but as evidence to consider. I'll also add a patristic quote...

"Sometimes too by the virtue of compassion and faith the stains of sin are removed, according to this passage: 'By compassion and faith sins are purged away.' And often by the conversion and salvation of those who are saved by our warnings and preaching: 'For he who converts a sinner from the error of his way, shall save his soul from death, and cover a multitude of sins'" - John Cassian, Conferences, 20, 8

Of course, the rub in this particular case is whether the Theotokos is presently "alive" and cognizant of what is going on, and also whether she is has both the wish and the capacity to pray for us. That one seems like a tougher issue, and one that requires a degree of trust in certain authorities much greater than the above issue...