Pietism in Orthodox worship?

[Jean-Serge]

I do not know where to post this message (prayer life or praxis).

It seems to me that some behaviors in church are really pietist i.e emotionnal and exagerated. Observing many people, I was surprised by many things. So I would like to know if such things are correct or allowed, if they come from a real Orthodox tradition.

1° In my church, I see many people crossing themselves after each petition (OK) and then systematically make a metany. This metany seems to me a little exxagerated. It seems to me that the moment where you can do metanies are strictly defined.

For instance, I was taught not to do metanies during the Trisagion, only the priest does.

2° In my church, during the Paraclesis on Sunday evening (so liturgically speaking we can admit we are on Monday), everybody kneels.

3° The same during the "Our Father" which is quite bizarre to me because when Jesus tauhgt his Apostles this prayer he said "When YOU STAND"

4° Other thing : prosternation during a liturgy (not on Sunday) are they allowed? Indeed, it seems to me every liturgy is linked with Resurrection; so we should not kneel whatever day (exceptec for the Presantified)

The kneeling seems to me very catholic (catholic before Paul VI's reform). If you enter a traditinnalist catholic church to observe, you see evrybody kneeling. You do not know why. i wonder if this practice would have not contamined Russia due to Catholic influence via Ukrain (like the words for the absolution in the Russian church or the interrogation for the marriage in the Russian church or even some really pietist -ugly- Russian icons and the Russian chant too ). Then, the Russians would have transmitted this to otherOrthodox peoples.

As regards metanies, I do not know...

I think a proper praxis can be found in monasteries (I hope). For instance, in Athos, the novice were immediately taught not to kneel on Sunday...

Thank you in advance... I am in a mixed church with 2 parishes (one Russian another Georgian)

[Jean-Serge]

At any rate, I think what I have written is "solid". . . . From curiosity, though, are you averse to all Russian Orthodox chant styles? Or, are you referring to the nineteenth-century "operatic" style that became popular with some. (That music truly IS hard to endure !!) Your paragraph was unclear to me.
Orthodox6

Thank you for your answer... I do not really like Russian music. The 19th century style is indeed hard to endure but the former style too. I do not talk about Znameny which is excellent.

I think Russian music is quite emotional and pietist too, in particular if you sing it with many female's voices... Even the reading of the Apostles and of the Gospels is emotional in Russian churches. There is a typical crescendo... Serbians do not read like that, neither do Romanians... I think Russian "traditions" in singing (particularly) could lead to a sort of emotionalism and lack of sobriety. But it depends much on the people singing. In Paris, the Saint Alexandr Nevsky cathedral's choir sings like opera (even if they do not sing 19th century music). At my current parish, we sing the same but more quietly even if sometimes it is very hard to endure.

I hope we will be able quickly to celebrate in Georgian or better find a local for our Georgian parish.

[Jean-Serge]

Thank you for the links... I think the question of pietism is more important that one could think... Indeed, I wonder if emotionnal practices do not lead to spiritual illusion...

[Tessa]

Serbians do not read like that,

Now that I have noticed many services within the different jurisdictions I see the Serbs are truly in a category of their own. Even though we're Slavs, our music differs highly from the Russian, and our chant is not drawn out like the Greek psalti.

I have a new Serbian CD called Река Православља (River of Orthodoxy) which consits of some Hymns but mostly new Spritual Songs (Духовне Пјесме). Some is Serbian style chant, some is more singing. It has songs of praise to the Theotokos, St. Nicholas, St. Sava, St. Paraskeva (Petka), and more. If anyone is interested I will burn you a CD or record a cassette, for free for you-just send me an address and which format you prefer in a PM.

In Christ,
Tessa

[Jean-Serge]

I come back with my topic : pietism is Orthodox worship...

As regards prostrations i.e great metany, the issue consisits in knowing which is the meaning of prostration... I think prostration or kneeling squares with repentance (asking forgiveness). So I really do not understand why making a prostration during a weekday liturgy before the Lord's prayer, or before communion when the priest comes with the Holy Gifts...

These moments, acccording to my modest opinion, are linked with resurrection or eschatology, so they would require standing... A professor at the Saint Serge Orthodox institute in Paris wrote an interesting essay (in French) about kneeling. He advocated for no kneeling in any liturgy of Saint John, Saint Basil, Saint James etc excepted the Pre sanctified liturgy because any liturgy is exchatological... I agree with him on this point...

Unfortunately, the answer and good practice must be written in a good typicon, a Typicon written when there were no latin influences... Unfortunately, such typicon has not been translated in English or French yet.

[Kybihetz21]

At this moment I do not have enough time to explain in detail some of the customs used by us Orthodox Christians during church services (which vary from one national Church to another), but I would like to inform of the existence of a manual where all those questions asked by Jean Serge are answered. Forms of this manual are found in the Jordanville Prayer Book and in some editions of the Horologion/Chasoslov (as well as in some older versions of various ecclesiastical service books). Like I said, to keep it simple, the Prayer Book published in the Holy Trinity Monastery in Jordanville has an appendix which covers "Church behavior". On another note, the fact that one may dislike some forms of traditions (Russian, Greek, etc) doesn't entitle that individual to be continuously attacking those traditions. Remember that many Russian saints practiced them, and if those practices were good for them, they are good enough for us sinners. That said please refrain from making more accusatory comments, is not something we need to read all the time.

[Jean-Serge]

Dear Kibihetz

Your message is typical of what I call conservatism but not Traditionnalism. Traditionalism is about finding the patristic teachings. Conservatism is about doing as my grand fathers did even if these practices were uncorrect. Example : kneeling on Sundays...

Something written in a book is correct as long as it does not contradict a Patrictical teaching. Just realize that many people still kneel on Sunday whereas canons and the Fathers clearly stated we ought not to kneel on Sunday...

Of course, many great saints could have had uncorrect practices, but as you know saints are not infallible. It is true that such saint may have prayed before a icon representing God the Father as an old man... Nonetheless, such reprentation is a mistake... It is true such saint may have prayed before a pietist icon. Nonetheless, true iconography is better than catholic-inspired iconography (in some case, I really wonder if the word icon is adapted).

I advocate for a serious study of practice to see if they do not contradict CHURCH TRADITIONS, which came from the Fathers.

Traditionnalism, yes, conservatism rooted in the 19s practice which suffered many western influences no...

Just realize that I am looking for explaination of such practices, I do not criticize them. I even talk about my MODEST opinion... So any explanation from you will be welcome...

To give an example of what I call traditionalism, I would quote Matr. Lavre, who said, during his trip to France (according to a friend) something like that : "after getting rid of western iconography, we'll gat rid off western way of singing". The question is not : was this peformed bay former Saints (of course it was). The question is : is that conform with true orthodox tradition?