Anathema on Ecumenism

[Nektarios14]

Tom,

While I don't have the quotes handy, the traditional patristic teaching of the Church is that baptism by heretics is not gracefilled as only Orthodoxy has gracefilled mysteries. As my spiritual father explained to me the reason why I was only Chrisimated was because economy can be used to recieve converts, but that doesn't imply that my Latin baptism was "valid."

[OrthodoxyOrDeath]

TomS,

I don't want to offend you, provoke you, or do any other harm, but for the sake of truth, I want to just say that there are no Mysteries outside the Church. If the Church decides to baptize anyone, no matter what form of "baptism" they had outside the Church, it is Her right to do so.

The danger of over-using economia is that people are mislead into believing their are baptisms outside the Church, however "imperfect" - as if the Grace of God can be imperfect.

I came form the OCA, and I can tell there has not been a single priest or layman who I spoke to who does not beleive there are baptisms outside the Church. This is a MOST heretical belief for which the First Ecumenical Synod recommends the priest or bishop to be deposed!

[TomS]

Tom, are you saying that a Baptist preacher is able to have valid sacraments? The Baptist religion does not see Baptism as a Sacrament.

:shock:

Wow! I never thought of it that way. You are absolutely right.

Now I am concerned.

[Nektarios14]

Now I am concerned.

Don't be too concerned though as many great saints were brought into the whith Chrisimation: Saint Elizabeth the new Martyr, Saint Alexis Toth and Father Seraphim Rose are three that I know off the top of my head.

[OrthodoxyOrDeath]

Paradosis,

You asked: If heresy is heresy (ie. it's a black and white issue), and communing heretics means that there must be an automatic cutting of ties with whoever is communing them (or whoever is in communion with the Church that is communing them), then why did some traditionalist groups wait for years to cut off communion"

All of the Greek "old calendar" Bishops waited 12 years before breaking communion.

The document linked above describes the reason they waited this long.

[Daniel]

Read the Oros of the Holy Great Church of Christ on the baptism of converts from the West Signed by Patriarch Cyril of Constantimople, Patriarch Matthew of Alexandria, and Patriarch Parthenois of Jerusalem 1755/56

I tried to find it online, but wasn't able (maybe some else will have a better time at it). In short it says that the baptisms of the heterodox are invalid because "[they] are administered contrary to the tradition of the holy Apostles and divine Fathers, and contrary to the custom and ordinance of the catholic and Apostolic Church".

Only the Orthodox keep the correct form of baptism! Can you really call aspersion baptism? That would like be throwing only a handfull of dirt on a dead body and saying it is sufficiently buried. Is a baptism of less than 3 immersions (or more) as sufficient? Apostolic Canon 50 explicitlyprohibates it, saying 'If a bishop or presbyter conduct an initiation and perform not three immersions, but one immersion-that administered into the Lord's death-let him be defrocked. For the Lord did not say, "Immerse into my death"; but "Go and make all the nations discples, immersing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."'

The best thing I have personally ever read on the subject of convert baptism is I Confess One Baptism... by Father George D. Metallinos.

[尼古拉前执事]

Daniel, Welcome aboard! Glad to see you delurk and come to the posting side of forum life. I appreciate your post and look forward to many more in the future!