Toll houses

Incognito1583 · Post by **Incognito1583** » Mon 11 August 2008 12:56 am

Azkoul has a Ph.D in patristics from Oxford. He is much more qualified then Father Seraphim on the teachings of the Fathers. That Archbishop Lazar was defrocked, has nothing to do with his scholarship. But some people rather have blind devotion to a man. This borders on cultism and brainwashing. Father Seraphim was wrong on this subject. I'm sorry to disappoint you.

Incognito1583 · Post by **Incognito1583** » Mon 11 August 2008 4:49 pm

Remember, when talking about Father Seraphim, we are talking about a man who believed the MP has grace.

From Archbishop Lazar:

"What is clear, and something that, in the dark, bleak and unChristian minds of you toll-housers, is that the whole literalised toll house doctrine that you create also creates totally irreconcilable internal contradictions betweent he holy fathers and within the doctrine and teachings of the Orthodox Faith. But your darkened souls and bleak minds do not care even to examine the fact, because the uglier and more bleak the teaching the better you like it. The more power that is taken from Christ and given to demons, the more it suits your personalities. The more you can elevate demons and degrade the Holy Spirit, the more you lust after the teaching. You are the most genuinely evil people in the Church today. That is quite clear to me. You exalt demons and degrade the Holy Spirit, give the demons the prerogatives of Jesus Christ and even deny Him access to the human soul unless the demons give their permission for Him to and Him alone to judge it. You deny that the demons are liars and have no truth in them, so that they cannot accuse the soul except by lies and slanders, and never with truth. You are men with corrupt and degenerate minds who destroy the souls of the faithful, corrupt the and pervert the meaning of marriage and follow after your own dark and secret lusts toward demons. That is very clear to me."

I ditto that.

GOCPriestMark · Post by **GOCPriestMark** » Mon 11 August 2008 8:36 pm

Incognito1583 wrote:
Remember, when talking about Father Seraphim, we are talking about a man who believed the MP has grace.

Remember, when talking about the thrice deposed Deacon Lev Puhalo, we are talking about a man who is in the OCA and believes the MP has grace . . . so, what's your point?

I take it you did not bother to look at the first page of this thread which contains the ROCOR Synod's decision in the matter. It is worth your time to read.

Incognito1583 · Post by **Incognito1583** » Mon 11 August 2008 9:31 pm

GOCPriestMark wrote:
Incognito1583 wrote:
Remember, when talking about Father Seraphim, we are talking about a man who believed the MP has grace.

Remember, when talking about the thrice deposed Deacon Lev Puhalo, we are talking about a man who is in the OCA and believes the MP has grace . . . so, what's your point?

Do you have any evidence he was deposed thrice? Or does this come from the Orthodox gossip channels?

The difference is in the form of a question: is Orthodoxy built on a man (Fr. Seraphim) or on the teachings of the Fathers? I believe there is a "gurism" mentality affecting some Orthodox today. They follow cult leaders with utter blind devotion. The more they do this, the more they leave Orthodoxy. This leads to fundamentalism and right out of the Church altogether.

Lazare Puhalo and Azkoul (who's credentials you have not addressed), merely echo the theology and consensus of the God-bearing Fathers.

joasia · Post by **joasia** » Tue 12 August 2008 12:00 am

Inco,

Lazare Puhalo and Azkoul (who's credentials you have not addressed), merely echo the theology and consensus of the God-bearing Fathers.

And the quotes of the God-bearing Fathers(Holy Fathers) don't? There have been plenty of references to them and their explanations. Even the death of St. Theodora is quite detailed. Have you read the posts, here, from the beginning? You haven't even read Fr. Seraphim's book.

You do the same thing, every time. You develop a view, based on the particular "guru" you choose to accept and reject anything opposed to it.

Quotes from Orthodox saints have been sited and yet all you do is go back to bashing Fr. Seraphim. You exalt Puhalo and Azkoul who are OCA and stomp on legitimate Orthodox teachings.

The habit of crossing ourselves was not explained in the Holy Bible either, but it's done. Why? Because it was taught by the Holy Fathers as part of our Orthodox Tradition.

The toll-houses are a dim expression of the judgement we will face. It will not be so literal because what we will face will be beyond human words. It will be worse. The only proofs we have are the human expressions that are given to us for our benefit, in order to bring us to our senses. To remind us of what we will face. There were many examples of this experience by those who came back. God chose to express it in this way.

I think you need more time to read the holy fathers. Perhaps you are confused and hooked on to the first influence you encountered, but if you want to know what's right, then you shouldn't build walls. Walls are for fanatics.

joasia · Post by **joasia** » Tue 12 August 2008 12:12 am

"What is clear, and something that, in the dark, bleak and unChristian minds of you toll-housers, is that the whole literalised toll house doctrine that you create also creates totally irreconcilable internal contradictions betweent he holy fathers and within the doctrine and teachings of the Orthodox Faith. But your darkened souls and bleak minds do not care even to examine the fact, because the uglier and more bleak the teaching the better you like it. The more power that is taken from Christ and given to demons, the more it suits your personalities. The more you can elevate demons and degrade the Holy Spirit, the more you lust after the teaching. You are the most genuinely evil people in the Church today. That is quite clear to me. You exalt demons and degrade the Holy Spirit, give the demons the prerogatives of Jesus Christ and even deny Him access to the human soul unless the demons give their permission for Him to and Him alone to judge it. You deny that the demons are liars and have no truth in them, so that they cannot accuse the soul except by lies and slanders, and never with truth. You are men with corrupt and degenerate minds who destroy the souls of the faithful, corrupt the and pervert the meaning of marriage and follow after your own dark and secret lusts toward demons. That is very clear to me."

I ditto that.

Of course you do. Such hatred in Puhalo and that's what I saw in you. Hatred and anger. No peace. no peace.

Wow. I never read his writings but this one certainly indicates where he's coming from. so sad. so sad.

Constantine · Post by **Constantine** » Tue 12 August 2008 12:45 am

Although by no means am I defending Puhalo, IF, and that is a big IF, he or anyone says something that is correct, amongst errors, if we are sure it is correct, then perhaps we should do as a the honey bee does when it goes to a flower, take the nectar and leave the "garbage".