Discuss the holy Mysteries and the liturgical life of the Church such as the Hours, Vespers, Matins/Orthros, Typica, and the Divine Liturgy. All Forum Rules apply. No polemics. No heated discussions. No name-calling.
For instance, you could see this picture,there you could see the "mixture of traditions" in the vesments of bishop Jean of Saint-Denis (Eugraph Kovalevsky). He and his brothers were a Russian immigrants in Paris who created the modern "Gallican Rite", He before had been a MP priest and very near to the "Evloghians" until he knew St John who became him a bishop (co-consecrating was the Romanian Bishop Theophilus Ionescu, the same one who co-consecrates Bishop Akakios Pappas for the "Florinites")
He was defrocked by ROCOR when they (the French) refused to use the Orthodox Paschalion (before St John applies Economy with them allowing them to use Latin Paschalion) but also it is very well-known the occultist, masonic and ecumenist activities of this little or Non Orthodox French group.
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O.k. , Explain this one- What about the blessing of the Priest to the faithful- How was it done in the past and how is it done now?
in Russian culture and some parts of the Greek world , the Priest always Blessed the faithful with Two fingers, and the latins the same...
The Greeks and the Russians have since changed it to I C X C
on the other hand the Abbyssinians and the Copts have always simply Blessed with a Cross in hand as they felt unworthy of making any kind of hand gesture and be wrong about it...
You still see Greeks Heiromonks do this, instead of wanting to give personal Blessing they instead also bow and sometimes Bless you with a Cross instaed...
or how about The giving of the Holy Mysteries, it was a practice of the Ancient Church to give out the Bread first and then the blood in a chalice- and later they introduced the spoon and mixed the Body and blood of Christ...The Abbysinians to my knowledge are the only ones that have kept this ancient tradition of signing and Blessing the faithful with a Cross, rather then with a hand gesture and Holy communion is given as it was given in days of old... this is done in piety and some say ignorance- But wouldnt you call a child ignorant ,because he doesnt know better- and think about it, in scripture God tells us we will also have to become as Children- Ignorant ,another word for pious
... this is done in piety and some say ignorance- But wouldnt you call a child ignorant ,because he doesnt know better- and think about it, in scripture God tells us we will also have to become as Children- Ignorant ,another word for pious
Dear Spiridon,
Where did you get the idea that ignorant = pious? Who has taught you this?
Where did you get the idea that ignorant = pious? Who has taught you this?
Father Bless!
Dear Father,
I believe Spiridon is not saying that piety=ignorance but in this world of ours a lot of people make that connection, while of course believing also that going with the "spirit of the times" is equal to intelligence and sophistication. For instance a lot of people consider the Orthodox to be riduculous for accepting the history of creation as outlined by Moses and believing that the Holy Spirit transforms the Gifts offered on our Altars into the Body and Blood of Christ.
Theophan.
P.S. If you start talking to non-Orthodox people about the Faith you soon realise how crazy even the best willed of them regard much of it.
Well, you cannot refuse that many rites have been "contaminated" to be cut of the Church by modifications made by heretics. This maybe is the case of the Latin Rites and the monophisites.
On the other hand, I am not against the rites used in the Church before the Great Schism as Gallican (French), Old Sarum, Mozarabic etc. But we should agree that the modern "Gallican", "Old Sarum", "Mozarabic", etc. are not the same rites used in the old Church, because only small percentages of these rites have survived until our days, and the rest was "completed" with other tradictions by modern men. For instance the modern "Gallican Rite" was "completed" with parts from the Latin Rite and the Bizantine-Russian Rite.
On the other hand the rites and Liturgy that remained always in the Church as the r Bizantine rites and liturgies as Liturgies of St. Chysostomos, San Basil, San Gregory the Dialogue (Presanctified), hours etc. They have never been "contaminated" by heretics, neither "adulterated" by modern men. but they have remained "alive" always in the Church. I think that this was the point for which the ROCOR bishops banned the "Western Rites" in 1978 and I share their opinion completely.
Father Bless!
Dear Father,
I find it interesting that when I was in the Soviet Church I was very interested in the whole "Western Rite" movement but after actually being Baptised into the True Church all that interest fell away.
im a convert to the orthodox church i left these western rites behide and any one wanting to become orthodox should embrace
the eastern rites as i have
