Raising money for our new church...

[尼古拉前执事]

While the Fathers bring up good points, I don't think having such a drawing for a church is gambling per say. I am willing to hear arguments that it is. But I felt that in good will I could buy tickets for Bethany's church and thus did so. My own priest is very much against gambling and tells us it is a sin, but at our annual Russian festival there is a drawing that tickets to enter are a dollar. The winner wins points which are redeemable for money. I do not think Batiushka would allow it if he saw it as a sin.

[Anastasios]

Dear In Christ,

Upon reading the above letter, I have to wonder:

1) Which Fathers?
2) What exactly was said in reference to gambling?
3) What were the relevent canons?
4) What was the context of gambling in the 4-8th century (ie was it like theater, involving immorality?)

We can't just throw around vague references to "the Fathers" without quoting "the Fathers." Reminds me of my Protestant friends saying "but doesn't the Bible say that...." and not having any clue where it might say that.

Gambling for fun is not a sin, methinks. Only if it interferes with your finances, like if I gamble my life savings or car payment.

Also, the apostles picked Matthias by choosing lots; how is that different than gambling? They gambled on the winner of the apostleship. Instantly I expect someone to say "BUT they were trusting in GOD!" and I would respond, well aren't you trusting in God when you gamble that if it's his will you will win? I certainly pray before picking my lotto numbers, and would give 10% or more of my winnings to the Church if I won.

anastasios

[Logos]

Dear In Christ,

Upon reading the above letter, I have to wonder:

1) Which Fathers?
2) What exactly was said in reference to gambling?
3) What were the relevent canons?
4) What was the context of gambling in the 4-8th century (ie was it like theater, involving immorality?)

We can't just throw around vague references to "the Fathers" without quoting "the Fathers." Reminds me of my Protestant friends saying "but doesn't the Bible say that...." and not having any clue where it might say that.

Gambling for fun is not a sin, methinks. Only if it interferes with your finances, like if I gamble my life savings or car payment.

Also, the apostles picked Matthias by choosing lots; how is that different than gambling? They gambled on the winner of the apostleship. Instantly I expect someone to say "BUT they were trusting in GOD!" and I would respond, well aren't you trusting in God when you gamble that if it's his will you will win? I certainly pray before picking my lotto numbers, and would give 10% or more of my winnings to the Church if I won.

anastasios

Anastasios,

This is Orthodoxy, you are not suppose to have fun. Even innocent fun can cost you eternal life. Seriously, I can understand what the concerns are of these two priests. I don't know, this thought has never crossed my mind. I guess most people would not see any harm in it. But once again, Orthodoxy brings up interesting things that we would otherwise gloss over.

[Justin Kissel]

anastasios

1) Which Fathers?
2) What exactly was said in reference to gambling?
3) What were the relevent canons?
4) What was the context of gambling in the 4-8th century (ie was it like theater, involving immorality?)

Well, I don't have a list already collected; here's what I pulled off Google this morning:

"Let a bishop, or presbyter, or deacon who indulges himself in dice or drinking, either leave off those practices, or let him be deprived." - Apostolic Canons, 42

"No one at all, whether cleric or layman, is from this time forward to play at dice. And if any one hereafter shall be found doing so, if he be a cleric he is to be deposed, if a layman let him be cut off." - Quinisext Council, Canon 50

(The only other reference I found which might be relevant was: Tertullian, On the Pallium, 5)

As I read the Fathers in the future I will take note of other references and will be sure to post them here.

Gambling for fun is not a sin, methinks. Only if it interferes with your finances, like if I gamble my life savings or car payment.

What can I say? It may or may not be a sin, but the whole concept of "fun" is way off course, IMO. This life isn't about fun, it's about something much greater. That which takes our mind off of God is not the best we can hope for; some things that take our attention are lesser goods (e.g., marriage), and some are evils. Where is the line drawn? I guess that differs from person to person. We have joy in the Christian life, but this is a far cry from the western concept of the "pursuit of happiness" (they should have kept the third "inalienable right" what I've read they originally were considering: "the right to own property," we'd have perhaps been better off).

Justin

[尼古拉前执事]

Thankfully this is not playing dice!

Anyway, I bought a ticket not for fun, but to help the church. Sure I might win, but probably not. If I do win in fact the grand prize, I will even donate part of the winnings back to the church. So in this case I do not see it as a bad thing.

[Anastasios]

Justin,

If you want to avoid having fun and relaxing, or at the most consider it a "lesser evil," be my guest. You will only end up self-destructing after two years or so, though. The Church knows we need to relax which is one of the reasons why she gives us festal periods that are fasting-free, etc. Life isn't all about self-denial to the extreme.

We are called to live dead to the world. That doesn't mean we shouldn't enjoy the world--au contraire. God gave us this world for pleasure. We sinned so it got corrupted. We tend to focus on passions and pleasures therefore. They aren't intrinsically wrong, though. The key is to enjoy what comes our way while not persuing pleasures.

If you get invited to come play cards at your friend's house, then go and have fun. If you start playing cards frequently and crave the next game, there's something wrong.

Orthodoxy is about making responsible decisions, not walking around like a morbid, desensitized zombie. To say that fun is not part of being Orthodox is an offense to God and His glorious creation, which he made for us to enjoy!

anastasios

PS if you are concerned that any given event is taking your mind off of God, then just say the Jesus prayer while you're doing it.

[尼古拉前执事]

I remember reading the fathers and one said that to fast more than is proscribed by the church laws and ones spiritual father is just as bad as not fasting at all. Remember everyhting is given to us for a reason.