Jkjj
Americans, who will you be voting for as President in 2004?
One could be a joker and say that coming to church with a unmarried boyfriend/girlfriend is better then coming with a married one. 
One could also suggest that if a young man and lady are going to church there may be some morality in their lives. It's alot different then a couple going to, say, a bar.
I was wondering about "arranged" marriages, too, George, as well as being boggled at such delicacy that "fallopian" or Ectopic pregnancy is unmentionable.
Ebor
I am puzzled by something here.......
I had always understood that Christ's presence at the marriage of Canaan meant that Christ blessed the sacrement of marriage. Yet if we are to understand what Artemon is implying then the fathers of the Church have gone in the exact opposite direction from the position of Christ himself. Does that mean that we are to accept Artemon's father's positions as the "truth" or do we acknowledge that Christ's blessing of wedding at Canaan showes that MArriage and all it stands for is the proper way to follow? Or is Artemon misreading the application of the father's logic?
Milla
To answer your question, I opine that the mind of the Church from the earliest days has always been clear. Both marriage and celibacy, within the Church, should be means towards salvation. Marriage being the little church.
If a confusion or doubt has been raised in anyone's mind then let them go to a sober priest and seek their guidance.
Personally, I do not want to get drawn into any form of dialogue with anyone who appears to carry 'disturbance' with them, almost like a garment. This is not to censure, but rather not to 'feed' this activity.
On a lighter note. I once intended visiting a very ill monk, and a young woman who also a great attachment to this monk asked if she might come along too. We went and the visit seemed to cheer him. The next weekend I received a summons from the hegumen. Wondering what was wanted I duly went to his office after collation. There I was told off in no uncertain terms. The grounds for my censure? Travelling in a car with a young woman not my wife or a relative. I had no problem with so being challenged, but did reflect later that perhaps we are too easy going and perhaps some 'problems' might not arise so readily in our times were a modicum of discretion taken in dealings between men and women.
Having got that off my chest I am now going to don a flack jacket, and wait for the firecrackers..................
What any of this has to do with the original subject completely passes me by?
gphadraig wrote:The grounds for my censure? Travelling in a car with a young woman not my wife or a relative.
You should have told him that you were sorry, and did not realize that Christians were now to act like Muslims! Sheesh.
----------------------------------------------------
They say that I am bad news. They say "Stay Away."
New song, I was born under a wandering thread, sung by that noted tenor Topic.
Well, TomS, I sometimes think looking around me and reflecting on my travels and stays here and there across the world that Christians may well look not to the faith of Moslems but sometimes to the challenge they may pose. (No this is not a reference to the work of Homeland Security).
I remember my equally travelled parents telling me of the wage levels paid in East Africa to servants. The Moslems were paid the most and Christians the least. Why, because they were less trustworthy. On digging around as to how this had come about it seems the Christian faith had been brought to the land by outsiders who taught a message of the greatest integrity to a population willing to listen, then these same outsiders lived a life violating everything they taught. The impact on those who had given up their own social structures and mores may be imagined.
In times when it has never been easier for Westerners to fast, this essential element is eschewed on a variety of spurious grounds. Yet among those who work longer for less and lack our year round access to a wide of foods fasting continues, especially among observant Moslems. Just a couple of examples. Another time my parents were travelling on a train like something out of an old black and white film. My father suddenly and violently was overcome by a dose of the 'trots'. He was covered in it, in the middle of an overcrowded rail compartment. Everyone rallied around, and helped. All without a single wrong expression or look of reproach. My mother taken care of and reassured too. Who were these good samaritans. Moslems. In a monastic church I know quite well, the land roundabout is tended by the most poorly paid labourers. All Moslem. Yet each year, on the feast (Old Calendar) of those Orthodox saints they are particularly attached too, they turn up like clockwork and offer candles paying with monies they can ill afford. Today when out and struggling to manoveure my mobility scooter in a tight aisle everyone ignored me except a group of Moslem youngsters, chadors, veils and all. Their help was offered unreservedly and accepted in like manner.
Our Faith is beyond reproach, but are we? As I see the relaxation and doing away of yesterday's social and religious mores I do not see people behaving in a more upright way but all too often the very opposite.
The Hegumen's reproach made two people think a little more carefully. I for one feel in debt to him. Others have mocked his words but it is his community who are there for those who no one else minds, and who attends so profoundly and carefully to the services. I am sorry but today it feels we are too often Christians by association rather than by the ascetic and disciplined struggle of our daily lives.